Medicine 2018 part 2

[LoniceraJaponica]

New thread here

Plumbing. I keep suggesting it to all of mine. Well paid and secure.

Yes I had that conversation with my DD Gendarme - it’s a tough path to take and there are lots of other equally good less demanding options ... that said, she is loving med school though I still worry about it ...

Gendarme- I completely agree with you. My Dd has seen us both work crazy hours, doing exams and was not considering medicine as a career initially. To be honest, we both were happy and relieved that she did not want to do medicine but she has changed her mind. We have been explicit in describing what she needs to give up in her life.
And for the hours, responsibility ( read Dr Gabba's news) you put in it is not a well paid job. Yes being a plumber or electrician is better in monetary terms.
It was not a profession it used to be as well- if you think doctors are respected that's not true! Neither your managers nor your patients ( a lot of them) don't!!!
Don't get me wrong - I love my actual job but I see so many gaps in junior doctors rota , a juniors doctor working instead of two/ three - when mistakes can happen easily which leaves the junior doctors stressed and demoralised ( most of them are in their early 20s straight out of school into medical school and a lot of them are altruistic)
I went back to work within 10 weeks of having my eldest, passed my specialist exam within 6months of having her, married to surgeon in training then so am not averse to hard work, resilience etc., but I have doubts that I can survive the current system.
I mentor junior trainees and had two really really talented girls who would not consider further training citing how bad the contract is and how unfriendly it is to have a family.
the actual job of being a doctor is probably one of the best profession in the world, most of us are in it not for money , but working in NHS in the current climate is extremely challenging!
A lot of my colleagues are retiring earlier than planned or actively planning for it in the near future!
My Dd is not committed to medicine completely and is considering natural sciences as well. Her inability to come to a conclusion is probably to do with all information she has at hand.... she may well take a gap year rather than rushing into doing medicine.

They can do plenty of other things Gendarme but fortunately some are quite clear that they want to go into medicine. Just as well for the rest of us really. I have to say prestige never entered my head! And no I never had a conversation with DS because that would have been patronising. There are some kids who are well informed and intelligent and prepared for a hard slog. We need doctors, more of them, not fewer.

Gendarme, I work for the NHS, although not as a medic, in a role that has seen the impact of recent reforms on clinicians but also management. It's heartbreaking. DD has been exposed to it as she's seen me becoming more and more stressed and helpless in my job, as well as meeting many clinicians through her volunteering.

We have discussed her choice to take that path for years, but the conclusion she's reached is that 1/ she can't think of anything else she would rather do, and in the end, she would prefer to struggle in that career than end up in a job she hates wondering why she didn't follow her heart, and 2/ studying medicine doesn't have to lead to being a clinician working for the NHS for 30+ years. At the moment, her aim is to study Medicine and earn a qualification. What she'll do with it, she can decide then. We even laugh that at worse, she could consider being a doctor on board a cruiseline!

I am one of those who looks back in regret for not having following my heart and taken a career path that leaves me unsatisfied with responsibilities that I don't enjoy and is not what I'm best at. I realised this in my late 30s but by then it was too late to retrain as had a family to support and now is certainly too late as I've started the countdown to retirement!

What mattered to me most as a mum was to feel confident that DD chose that career because it is what suits her personality traits and skills, not because of the fantasies associated with being a doctor, saving lives etc... as so wrongly illustrated in the media, and certainly not for the status that is still associated with studying Medicine.

I personally think that a 5 minutes station at interview to assess this seems too short, but maybe interviewers know what to look for and can pick up very quickly candidates who indeed only see the positives of being a clinician and have a very deluded views of the negatives.

Nowadays, we don't bat an eyelid if we hear one of our colleague has gone off stress, lot of doctors marriages break down and more and more consultants step down to work as registrar at night due to rota gap. Having done this , the consultants carry on seeing their own patients in the clinic etc in the morning as they don't want to let these patients down.

The students who enter needs to know what they are letting themselves into - that's all!
Sometimes it is difficult to understand this if you have not experienced it first hand.

I would stress that the actual job is fantastic and nothing can come close to when you see that you made a real difference in someone's life.

@LoniceraJaponica just out of interest if you don't mind me asking, what other course at Nottingham has your daughter been offered? I'm currently doing a course that has a fair few people who didn't get into medicine on it. Many of them are really happy now and glad they chose this path.

Medial physiology and therapeutics. I would be interested to hear about it. I am going to show DD the posts from the doctors on here as well.

When my Dd was considering doing Economics she spoke to one of our friend's son who had done economics and works for one of the big 4 companies. He was telling that there were 2 medics who have joined the firm.
It was eye opening for me though!

I am going to sit on fence with this, it takes a lot of money and effort to train a doctor and it is heart breaking to see this. But I can understand why they take this sort of decision as well!

We need talented, clever , hardworking young people in medicine and need more of them. I am actually ashamed that I felt relieved when my Dd did not want to do medicine and she had said that she won't do anything to do with medicine as far as I remember. But, if she wants to do medicine I will support her as she has made this decision on her own and knows its full implications which can't be always assessed in interviews or MMIs. There is a significant drop out rate in medicine although not aware of any concrete data.

The other thing I hear is that although it's bad, and much worse than in the past, some trusts are better than others. Local culture and management systems do play a small part.

We are not medical, but medicine seems to make perfect sense for dyslexic and practical DD who was always clear she would not want to work in a office. Until it became clear she was a natural scientist and would get the grades for medicine, we had assumed she would do something like physio or sports teaching/coaching. I could really see her happily running a busy A&E.

The fact is that the whole of the public secotr has been subjected to management consultant advised management by tickbox targets for decades. Public sector managers no longer get promoted because they can manage, but because they can play the game. Years back I remember a lovely manager go out on the hottest day of the year and buy a big bag of choc ices for a room full of credit control staff. He was strict but empathetic and well respected. Now most of the staff have been replaced by computers and the others are probably miserable as targets dont allow for heat waves. NHS staff are stressed, but so too are teachers, and a range of other people. What the management consultants dont seem to have understood is that whilst some people are motivated by money, others are motivated by making a difference.

We both work/worked in the public sector so in that sense DD has her eyes open. (DH's job is impacted by Brexit. Things are really rough, but not something the organissation seems to be able to take on board as they tinker with their salary/bonus system to meet macro public sector targets.) One thing however is that she can see doctors we know in the last decade of their careers, enjoy their challenging and interesting work. At a point when the City lawyers and bankers are looking anxiously over their shoulders at a younger generation ready to take their places.

LJ- Medical physiology is a good field and there is always jobs for them.
You can specialise later on as well so there is scope of this. She can have contact with patients and work closely with clinicians.
Hopefully she will get into medicine as she seems like a determined girl.

@LoniceraJaponica I've not heard of that subject before, I just been on the website and it does look interesting.

I am on an MPharm program (Not at Nottingham), quite a few got in through clearing after not meeting their offers for Medicine.

A lot of people have misconceptions about Pharmacy, but the range of jobs is wide and varied. Many end up working on wards in hospitals, you can even become a consultant pharmacist in the NHS. We have been doing some of our training in the RVI this year.

Needs - spot on once again.

The management does not care about the human beings who work there but only care about targets ! Both the staff and patients are not beneficiaries of this way of management.
I remember ( long long time ago) when I was a registrar, we worked as a team and looked after each other. I would never let my team work without having food/ drinks - would routinely get things for them to eat when they can't leave the acute ward. It is not like that anymore.

Wow, thank you the responses everyone. I feel a little guilty that this thread has shifted to being about DD, but it has been so helpful.

Thank you again.

Sometimes it is difficult to understand this if you have not experienced it first hand.

The thing is, it's not just the medical profession that has been affected. I have friends who are teachers, some who are policemen, a friend with the border control and even people in the private sector and stress due to increasing demand and reduction in autonomy is a common issue for all.

I have views -like all- as to why that is which is not for sharing here, but we can either lament and tell our kids that it isn't worth going for a worthwhile profession or we let them take that step and be prepared to be there for them when they need support. In the end, if DD were to ask me what I thought would be a good alternative professional path to take, I really don't know what I would suggest because no-one knows what the world will be like in 20, 40, 60 years.

Sorry Needmoresleep, just realised you've already posted the same about the whole public sector being affected!

What the management consultants dont seem to have understood is that whilst some people are motivated by money, others are motivated by making a difference
My experience of such consultants (and indeed, doing more damage than good!) is that they are only employed as a money saving exercise, and many of them were once in that stressed and harassed position themselves, and having suffered the effect for years, have taken the 'I don't care about anything but my own survival' route.

The NHS (as other professions) have lost that family -we're all in it together - motto because when you find yourself in such sufferance, you realise that your own wellbeing and that of your own family has to take precedence.

The management does not care about the human beings who work there but only care about targets !
And many clinicians have no notion of the pressures they are under by NHSE to cut budgets. Most managers are fully aware of the impact of such cuts and don't agree them at all, but are under directives to somehow do miracles without upsetting clinicians, hence being cut between two chairs and all wanting to walk out!

@LJ - my DD looked at the course as she was also offered it as an alternative. The course is based at Derby Hospital and not at Nottingham. It appears to be a fairly new course for Notts. Some discussion on TSR about it.

Swingofthings- you have made some fair comments.
It is not an easy situation for anyone in public sector!

It certainly isn't and the worse of it all is that I really do believe that most public workers are truly committed to their profession and organisation, yet have all in common a feeling of utter helplessness and not being listened to and often criticized publicly.

I love the NHS, I really do. My parents are in France and despite the false reputation, don't get half the good service the NHS is providing but we are all humans and when you reach that point you feel you have nothing left to give because it's all been sucked out of you, you know you have to move on somehow, even though you know that doing it is only going to add even more burden to those left behind.

I wish politicians would wake up and realise that the NHS is not half as much about policies as it is about its people.

Going back to the thread, DD has suddenly started to look at accommodation at... Manchester, so I think has started to let her mind take her there, after speaking with a number of people about her options. She was going to wait for the offer holder day but speaking with other prospective students is starting to realise that the best accommodation choices will go quickly.

And so starts the conversations 'of course it's your choice to go for the best and opt for the en-suite but you won't get more money from the loans/me so that will be at the cost of something else' followed by 'it's great you are planning a holiday this summer with your friends, I assume you will also do as much work as possible to build up some savings'!

In terms of catering vs self-catering, there are + and - to it. She is going to inquire about the times they are open for self-service as if it too restrictive, then self-catering might be the best option. I do like the fact that it is then possible to do an order myself for delivery there if I get the 'mummmmm, I don't have a penny left and not even bread in the cupboard, what do I do?'