Turn down a Cambridge offer

[Wobbliebits]

My daughter and I were talking about the whole uni student experience.

Having spent a week at a Cambridge summer school and also visited her friend at a different uni for a week she feels that if someone went to oxbridge they would miss out on the nightlife, clubbing, staying up all night, eating beans on toast kinda thing.

I have no experience of being at a uni... are we stereo typing and being very judgemental to think this? And would someone be crazy to turn down an offer to study medicine at oxbridge due to these views?

Thank you for your thoughts 🙂

Some good videos here about Cambridge admissions:

(includes an interview for Medicine)

countess - yeah isn't it 2 years undergrad med, mainly lecture based, then third year in whatever you want but usually natsci. Then graduate with your BA in whatever (but nothing written on your degree cert, so really you can call it what you want) and then 4,5 and 6 mainly hospital based for the clinical part of your studies?

That was what I was trying to say above and what I think you're saying in your post too, so hopefully we were both trying to say the same thing?

The degree certificate for the BA from Oxford says Medical Sciences.

Etymology, yes, that's how it works. The degree certificates, to be fair, from here do look like something I could knock up in Word and just print myself! I've got a postgrad degree and it doesn't say what it is in. I could claim to have done it in anything!

countess

Yes really feel like I need to get mine framed in something fancy to make it look less like I just printed it on the work printer on some vaguely decent paper... instead it just sits in an envelope with all my other exam certificates!

I reckon it makes sense to first figure out what type of a medical training you want. If you want an integrated curriculum with clinical exposure early on then Oxbridge would not make so much sense. If you want to do medical science including a bachelors first and some flexibility over where to go for clinical afterwards then I reckon it’s hard to beat Oxbridge and under those circumstances it would be odd to turn down an offer. And I have no idea where the idea of no partying comes from. That is utter nonsense despite the curriculum being demanding.

A few observations I’ve gathered and also to dispel some myths from this thread:

” All medical degrees are conferred by the GMC not the university so it doesn't matter where you do it.”

I’m pretty dumbstruck what people have been reading and researching particularly when they have (if I’m not mistaken) a DC applying to med school in this current application cycle.

”. . .are you more likely to get F1 (is that what it's called?) posts in the 'in demand' specialisms if you have studied medicine at Oxbridge, or is that not really relevant?”

Almost every newly qualified doctor in the UK gets a F1 post in the month of August following qualification and thereafter to F2 the following year. The question (and the difficulty) is, which deanery out of the total 21(?) deaneries in the UK are you allocated to. Allocation to deanery, and therefore eventual specialism, is by way of a competitive exam amongst all the newly qualified doctors. It doesn’t matter an iota if you’d studied medicine at Oxbridge or the Outer Hebrides. Neither does it matter your daddy is the Head of Oxford Medical School and your mummy is the Admissions Tutor at the Cambridge School of Medicine. There’s nothing more to it and absolutely no correlation in your career paths. [See attached table(s)]

You apply to 5 deaneries of your choice in order of preference. Three out of the four deaneries in London together with the Severn in the West Country are exceptionally popular and always over-subscribed annually. No “average” medic from any of the UK schools, Oxbridge or no Oxbridge, has a chance in getting a place in the above named deaneries. The lowest allocated score for these deaneries is ˃80 [Max. score: 100]

This is not to suggest other deaneries do not attract “top” medics. Some of the best medics just do not fancy London for one reason or other, e.g. boy/girl-friend is in another city/town; moving back to be nearer family, etc.

Many, if not most, medical schools in the UK offer a 6-year course in a medicine degree. Oxbridge, Imperial and UCL in London make it a compulsory 6-year course (which includes a one-year general degree course culminating in a BA/BSc(?) whilst other 5-year-course med schools give you the option of one additional year in an intercalated degree also culminating in a BA/BSc degree.

You are right, Etymology, you don’t get a “general medicine” degree from Cambridge or anywhere else for that matter. Unlike other degrees, a medicine degree is an unclassified degree i.e. there’s no First, Second or Third etc. You either Pass or Fail in a medicine degree. Also, unlike other degrees where the passing mark is 40%, the passing mark for a medicine degree is usually 60% -- 65% in some schools! For the high-flying medics (± 8%) they get a Pass with Distinction.

So, OP, I hope you are convinced it really doesn’t matter whether you read medicine at Oxbridge or somewhere else. I cannot deny an Oxbridge degree in any other subject (other than medicine) might just see you snapped up quickly by potential employers [debatable] but for medicine, you get snapped up even before you can catch your breath back after your Finals at med school just a mere few weeks before!

A clearer view of the above two tables here:

1. Click on the following links;
2. Click again to enlarge.

postimg.org/image/1e8ud2cyp7/

postimg.org/image/61k063mlgb/

I am a relatively recent graduate from an Oxbridge medical school. Medical school at Oxbridge is actually probably one of the best ways to ensure you do get the 'uni experience'. Because of the way the course is split into 3 pre-clinical and 3 clinical years, for the first half of your degree your lifestyle is exactly the same as other undergraduates. In contrast, at many other medical schools because placements start earlier you are less likely to be able to participate in as much mid week clubbing etc.

In terms of whether or not an Oxbridge medical degree influences your future jobs as a doctor the answer is not nearly as much as in other careers. However, there is something to be said for automatically being able to do an additional degree, which gets you a considerable number of points when applying to specialty training. You can do this at other medical schools, but my understanding is that it's a competitive process to be allowed to.

IMO one of the main gains from the first 3 years of an Oxbridge medical degree is lots practice for academic science writing. That is a really useful skill to develop, even more so for those who have aspirations towards some sort of research in their future careers.

You are right, OverTheHandlebars, the extra year intercalated degree at 5-year med schools is a very competitive one – just like everything Medicine from beginning to end as I’m sure you know. Not everyone is permitted the intercalated degree. My DS graduated in July this year from a central London school and within a couple or so short weeks after graduation, he had to be dragged away grudgingly from the comforts of his family home to his allocated deanery (one of the four most competitive mentioned above).

Some years back when he first told me he was going to do the intercalated degree, I wasn’t too pleased because it meant his MBBS degree would be delayed by a further extra year. But never mind the MBBS, it was only after he got his intercalated degree (a First) in a particular specialised subject that I read in the newspapers later, that in London alone there were a few dozen people with the same degree specialism who were earning more than the then Prime Minister, David Cameron! Well, what the hack do I know about medicine?

earning more than the then Prime Minister, David Cameron! Well, what the hack do I know about medicine? He didn't earn that much as PM!

No, he didn't - just a mere £149K-ish. That's just slightly more than a hospital consultant with appx. 20 years experience on £103K.

The average income of a GP partner in England, including all private earnings, was £105,300 in 2008. Nearly 10 years on.... what would they be earning? But someone with similar grades at school with a different Oxbridge degree, a lot more of them would be exceeding the PM's salary. A few dozen consultants earning more than the PM seems very low. last consultant ds saw charged us £250 for an 45min session.

There must be tens of thousands of people in the UK who are earning more than the PM if, in addition to their basic salaries, you take into account their private earnings, overtime, perks and other employment benefits, etc. The figures I quoted earlier for the PM and consultants with 20 years experience are just official basic salaries. The £250 45-minute session you paid for the consultant to examine your ds could very well be one of these consultants going about his private business which is not included in the figure I quoted. Likewise, a PM on retirement but still carries with him/her the status of a Prime Minister (retd) can command a fee of £250K or more for each speech he gives not to mention the many perks and benefits they receive whilst PM.

You’ve had great answers here and I hope it’s helped: but fundamentally if your DD is not most significantly interested in her subject first and foremost (if clubs and beans are what she really wants) then seriously, Oxbridge isn’t the place for her. Candidates are interviewed precisely to test their commitment and passion for their subject, and, yes of course many of them do many other things too and have a whale of a time, but at the root of it they are there to study and to spend long hours doing so.

Dh was on that official list for earning more than the PM - it's a long list, it's not that impressive that there's only a few dozen medical consultants, but then Medicine is not the job you go into to earn big bucks.

Thank you everyone for you input, it’s certainly been interesting to read all the comments and we’ve taken them all onboard.
Just got to wait and see how the application process goes now!
Thank you again

Bulls**t. Oxbridge excels at teaching people to “work hard, play hard”. That’s why they’re successful people, because they are willing to take on a lot and make sacrifices (sleep, mainly). My own brother for one.
It’s a medicine degree that will stop her doing so much of those things in my opinion.

Don’t know whether you’re deliberately trying to steer away from this discussion, Orange, or just simply do not understand what I wrote. But yes, it’s definitely not that impressive if only a few dozen [hospital] consultants earn more than the PM. Hey, a 10-year-old kid could just simply google this question and the answer will appear in no time at all that 10% of GP’s alone earn more than the PM, never mind consultants, but if you add in the consultants the answer will be more like greater than a dozen thousands, never mind “a few dozen”.

But anyway, just to recap - what I said was that DS’s 1-year intercalated degree in a particular specialised subject could possibly by itself secure him a job that potentially sees him earning more than the PM like “a few dozen” people in London with the same degree specialism are already doing!

And very right too, Medicine is not where you go for the money – a point I’ve been advocating for decades!

"The average income of a GP partner in England, including all private earnings, was £105,300 in 2008. Nearly 10 years on.... what would they be earning?"

orangeplastic, Probably far less. Even the Telegraph (not renowned for its pro-doctor stories) says so:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11856441/Average-GP-pay-dips-below-100000-for-first-time-in-a-decade.html

Also, "A few dozen consultants earning more than the PM seems very low. last consultant ds saw charged us £250 for an 45min session."

Very few NHS consultants do private practice to any great extent.

Thinking about my consultant friends, I can think of one surgeon who does a private clinic/theatre list about once a month, but was thinking of giving it up because the admin and low profit (need to pay for rooms, staff etc) didn't make it worthwhile. He did enjoy it sometimes for the more time that it gave him to speak to patients. That's the only person I can think of.

As you say yourself, if you want to make money, don't go into medicine!

I am puzzled by the idea that being a vegetarian would prevent you going to Oxbridge.

I was at Cambridge in the 80s when veggie cafeteria food was still in the vegetable lasagna / stuffed pepper era and I somehow managed to self cater on a two ring hob with a tiny shared fridge, and eat well. DD1 (also vegetarian) has a small galley kitchen in her Cambridge college and she's cooking most nights (and eating well) or eating with friends, but also eats the excellent vegetarian and vegan food served by college.

if those able enough to apply to Oxbridge want to earn a lot of money they would be better applying for another course. A few consultants may earn a lot from private practice but it takes 10 years to get to consultant level and longer before you are well enough established to earn a lot from private practice, even if you have chosen a specialty where that is possible. You will also have massive debts from your 6 year course and be losing 9% of salary for 30 years. Meanwhile your friends who did a 3 year course have significantly lower debts and may have started work on a salary not much less than consultant level when bonuses are included (genuine example of Cambridge graduate).

As said there are good reasons to avoid Cambridge - less early clinical contact (can be mitigated a bit), compulsory 6 year course, short intense terms. Cambridge no longer allows students to go elsewhere for the clinical years, that is no longer relevant. Teaching is different but whether it is any better is hard to say. Students are required to learn in more depth than friends on medical courses elsewhere but in sometimes that depth seems of little use. The 6 year courses at UCL and Imperial share the lack of early clinical contact.

At F1 stage medical school is of little relevance and an intercalated degree adds only a few points. For specialty exams certain medical schools do have a slightly better level of passes but those with high academic results tend to concentrate in some schools.

At Cambridge your child probably wouldnt be eating beans - it's quite a foodie place where eating out is at least as popular as clubbing. But google May balls if staying up late is their thing. Trinity claims their May Ball to be the second best party in the world.

I was at Oxford and went clubbing a lot. In Oxford. There was a big music scene and lots of clubs run by students who rented proper venues. There was also a lot of beans on toast late at night. Student houses are student houses everywhere. Fresh Meat took me back. It's not all summer balls, garden parties and punting though it is that as well.