Should students study subjects they love or a degree that will get them a job?

[bevelino]

My dd's will be applying for courses for 2018 and have asked me whether they should study subjects they love or a degree that will lead to a job? I am unsure what to advise. What do mumsnetters think?

Can't you do both? My daughters etc did not read law at university just a subject they liked but at a very good university and then did law for 2 years after that and now practise in London. Half of lawyers don't read law. I read law and absolutely adored it and still do decades on. For any child who is fed up with school and school subjects I recommend law degrees if you are bright enough to get on to a course at one of the best universities to read that subject.

I have twins about to go to university (not triplets so you beat me there....) and like their siblings they will be doing subjects they like and will hopefully get a good degree in and in particular they have gone for the best universities they can get into - although results are due in August so whether they will get in to whatever becomes their first choice remains to be seen of course.....

not that any of my older children took this advice but I do recommend work experience. Eg in year 1 summer holiday I did a bit of work experience in a solicitor's office. In year 2 onwards I volunteered in a law centre at university and I also took part in university moots ( mock trials).

Get your children to pick universities in say the top 10 and choose from those I suggest. The problems come for people including people I know whose children have not been well advised. A friend's daughter best in all subjects at her comprehensive school wanted to be a lawyer. She went to Oxford Brookes - an ex polytechnic as all her friends were going there. Why on earth? A 2 second web search would show you that is not where the best law firms recruit from . Why did her father and school allow that? Another one law at a very bad ex poly who obviously has not got a law training contract yet.

Youc an always move down in life - my graduate son the postman etc. It is harder to move up. So if you can get to the very best university Oxbridge, Durham, Bristol, LSE, UCL etc then you tend to have most chances in life. Ditto exam results. Get good results. Later if you want to do something easier then you can. Much harder with poor results having been to a bad institution to get a great job - not impossible but harder.

It's slightly dependent on University I think. Ancient History at Oxbridge/ Durham/ Bristol great, at an ex poly, less so and I'd advise a vocational course.
What are their interests and predicted grades?
With triplets I'd factor in distance as well- the logistics and cost of getting them to and from St Andrews, Exeter and Bristol would be a nightmare if you live in East Anglia!

Love.

You need a balance, and it depends on what subjects they love and what kinds of career they want to pursue.

if "what they love" is an academically rigorous degree at a highly respected university, and the career they want to pursue regularly takes on graduate recruits in any subject so long as they are 2:1 or better with a view to training them up - then that will lead to a good job anyway.

If they think that a degree in CSI Investigates Forensic Studies from the University of Nowhere is going to get them a job as a forensic investigator (it won't) or similar they may well find that vocational degrees aren't always well tailored to the jobs market at the end of them, or if they are then they are competing against far too many identically qualified people for a tiny number of vacancies.

If "what they love" is something they find easy at school it may be that it isn't the same at university where if it doesn't require hard work then it isn't really worth doing. For many professions, the skill you learn at university is how to study independently without being "taught" like you are in school, and get the knowledge you need to address a task, buckling down and working hard without anyone making you. Any academically rigorous degree should get you that if done enthusiastically, so it might as well be one you love. A degree course that also includes group assignments and work placements will also help massively.

100% something she loves.

There is a balance to be struck.

To make it worth the investment of university, they ideally need to come out with a high grade from a 'good' university, so ideally a 2:1 from a top 10-15 uni. Even better if they get a first.

This will give them maximum flexibility in the workplace afterwards, as they can go on graduate entrance schemes, take up law, do a Masters and so on, these usually specify a 2:1 or above, and like more traditional courses, so a 2:1 in history from UCL or Warwick fine, a 2:1 in Media Studies from former poly isn't going to carry much weight. You need an upper 2:1 or first to carry on to do a PhD, and it's also worth noting that employers are moving towards liking transcripts (so all of the marks of the whole course detailed) so they can see if you scraped a 2:1 or whether you had consistently high marks across the board and just missed a first.

The question then is how do you achieve that? Subjects you 'love' is the obvious way, but within reason!

Disclaimer: I have lots of friends who didn't go to very prestigious unis or get 2:1's but that was in the days where few people went to uni and therefore having gone at all was a sign of good education.

If you have the opportunity to spend three years pursuing a subject that makes you light up, that makes you think, why blow it? Study what you love.

In some cases it doesn't have to be one or the other and it also depends on the person.

My DS1 is looking at 2018 entry and will either be doing engineering type or computing type course. He loves both so it's a hard choice for him but both areas should be ones that will lead to employment. However, he is very self disciplined and tbh would study well at any subject regardless. The Columns weren't favourable to him for his exam subjects last year but he still worked and got As in two subjects he loathed.

DS2 will be looking at 2019 entry, he has no idea what he wants to do. He loves history and modern studies, he struggles to hold interest or motivate himself to study the subjects he has no interest in (Maths, sciences etc) he also has fairly narrow interests within History. There would be no point him doing something that led more easily to a matching job as he wouldn't perform well. I think he will need to pick something like History and Politics etc if he is to be successful.

It's great to hear of the positive outcomes for these sorts of degrees :)

I would also say if you have a child who won't get the grades for a top uni, then the next best option is to go for a well-ranked course at perhaps a middle-tier uni which has good pathways to employers and has work placements built in. That way you will end up with good work experience/possible ways to future employment even if it's not a super-academic university.

However I would be amazed if these degrees ever lead to jobs. Does that matter? Well I think it does, unless you are either extremely wealthy or happy to live on benefits.

And I think it doesn't matter

Loans are only repayable once you're earning, so if your degree in Dance leads to a low paid, but hugely enjoyable job stage managing a small regional dance company that's great surely. Minimal loan repayments, and a job you adore.

Media studies by the way despite being sneered at here has pretty good employment outcomes....

What do you think op? What are your daughters' interests? Are they academically strong?

I think something she loves but as long as its not in a subject that's not really taken seriously or is academically rigorous. Or go to a uni that she is very over qualified to go to. I've seen kids go to uni with very good grades just because the lower uni had offered cash incentives. And now regret. Yet they could have gone to top 20 uni instead. Also when at uni, get as much work experience or volunteering as they can throughout the years. There's a lot of opportunities to do so. Finally, try and get the best grades they can even in 1st year where it doesn't count. But it can serve them well for other things eg getting work experience in punulatimate year. But also the work ethic created in 1st year will very much help them in year 2 where things are a lot more challenging.

It depends.

A big difficulty is that not all students know what they 'love' at 18, and certainly don't know what they will love to study. It is worth taking the time to figure this out.

Every year, I teach students who applied to do my subject (English) because they loved it. And they are fed up because they don't love what they're doing, because they expected an English Lit degree to be something different from what it is.

With some of them, what they actually loved was thinking about what makes characters in books tick, and why some stories make us sad or happy (this is a big emphasis in school English). They might have been better doing Philosophy, Anthropology, Sociology or Psychology.

With some of them, they loved learning about different ways of living, and understanding new worlds and cultures in books. They might have been better doing History, or geography, or (again) anthropology or philosophy.

With some of them, they loved English because they enjoyed reading books and talking about their favourite books. They don't want to think about books as literature - they just want to spend time reading and saying 'I really love this bit' without thinking too much about why. And they certainly don't want to read anything that they might not enjoy immediately.

These ones make me simultaneously weary and sad. They simply didn't understand what the degree would be like, and they usually feel aggrieved that it's not fun for them. Part of the problem is the difference between school and university; part of it is the (misguided) perception that if you 'love' something like reading, you will automatically 'love' something very different, such as academic study of literature.

The same points apply for any university subject. Check how it's taught - it could be totally different from the school subject. This could also mean that something you found a bit dull at school is riveting at university. I would never have chosen to study geography at school, but university courses would be much more fun. Check that you actually understand what the course is about.

It is mind-boggling to me how many students simply do not realise that it is important to look at the courses they propose to apply for, to see what they will actually be doing. IMO, it is one of the major reasons why people are unhappy, drop out, or do badly. For students who got good A Levels, it is probably the major reason.

And obviously, one surefire way to mess up your chances of getting a good job after university, is to fail to get your degree, or to get a rotten degree.

I'm assuming she doesn't have any particular job aspirations? Most professional positions will require you to follow a certain degree route. My SIL is a barrister and did a Classics degree prior to her law degree because that is a sensible thing to do for that career path. I did an RICS accredited degree because I needed it to become chartered.

If she doesn't know what she wants to do job wise, she might as well do a degree in a subject she loves - going down the academia route without an end goal in sight is a non starter.

I think that there are two reasons to go to university... either because you are certain you want to follow a career that requires it e.g. Vocational courses or a BA/Bsc to get you into a certain position ... or because you love a subject enough to study it for thrrr years with no guarantees/ plan at the end. Of course lots of the young go because it is what they expect of themselves or the school / parents expect of them academically/ socially. This can work for some .. it is after all great to have the opportunity to learn and to grow up a little more slowly with structure and few responsibilities.it isn't without risk though; financial and homesickness etc come to mind. Perhaps this group should look at a gap year/ work while they consider whether they fit into one of the first two categories.

Well said LRD

I think of a degree like marrying a subject in a way since 3 years is longer than some marriages I have known. You should definitely choose a subject you love BUT you should also thing about what the outcome is.

I think it is best to aim for the most 'core' subject you can do with respect to loving the subject, and also think whether a degree is actually suitable.

For instance Media Studies. Quality varies but employment prospects are rather patchy. IF you are into the more dramatic side of it maybe do music or drama. Or if you are more interested in the technical side, perhaps Engineering or Physics.

Or if you are interested in working in corporate finance. I wouldn't do Business Studies - go for Economics if you are more on the mathematical side or History or Philosophy if you are more humanities for example.

Core degrees have more potential in terms of flexibility and there is always the option to specialize later. You may find you own feelings about careers change during the time at Universtiy.
YY to researching Universities re strengths and weaknesses. If you want to do Law but cannot get into the top universities perhaps reconsider your degree for something more general purpose.

Having studied a subject because I loved it I would say job. Do a course that will actually train you for a job rather than one that doesn't mean anything!

If there genuinely is a subject they love with a passion then I'd say go for it - there's usually a way to work around the subject if you care enough.

However, very very few school students do genuinely love a subject that much. If they "quite like" a subject with poor judgement b prospects I'd be looking at joint honours degrees or alternative options with better employment prospects.

My DD studied MFL then became a barrister. She didn't fancy Law at 18 and was better suited to languages. It is vital young people know what the course is all about though. Interestingly the ones on my DDs course that dropped out found essay writing very difficult. Too many people seem to think MFL degrees are all about acquiring language. The best ones are not.

I also think job prospects have a lot to do with ambition, class of degree, university attended and work experience or relevant volunteering. Your CV has to be more then just the degree. I also believe that arts graduates in particular need a rounded CV so holiday work, a relevant internship, taster days or volunteering show an intention to work. Spending the summer in Ibiza is not a particularly good advertisement for your work ethic.

Therefore do a degree that is valued by employers and if that is something you really enjoy, so much to better. Also never forget that it is better to do a general degree from a top class university than a mediocre one. However, the ex Polys do have their great strengths and often it is links with industry and sandwich courses. However, if you really love that Green Keeper course and can walk into a job at your local golf course, why not?

Thanks yikes.

How many degrees actually train someone for a job though? Realistically? That would wipe out every degree in English, History, Geography, MFL, Philosophy, Sociology, Anthropology, Psychology, a lot of pure science and a whole load more. Can we really have a nation of Economists and Doctors? Also, many Law graduates never get near a career in Law. The arts degrees train you to think and research and write coherently as well as present an argument and be adaptable. Not every student can do a purely vocational degree. They may not actually know what their vocation is at 18 (or 16 if they choose the wrong A levels) and people like John Lewis and other major employers would have a very narrow band of graduate applicants and perhaps people displaying a narrow set of skills too .

bojo I agree, there are not that many degrees that lead directly into employment, I have to explain this to parents a lot especially in relation to social science. Even if you do a degree in Criminology, this does not mean you will be a police officer or forensics expert! 50% of law graduates don't even attempt or want to go forward with a law career at our institution, luckily their degrees are still valuable for a host of other graduate opportunities.

I also point out that most careers require further post-grad training anyway, so as long as your degree doesn't preclude that, it will be fine. Our Philosophy grads are well employed, but whether this is because they are already quite affluent (the choice to study Philosophy being one that might not be supported by less wealthy parents very concerned with vocational education) or because they are very clever/deft of mind, it's hard to say.

The only exception to this in social sciences at least is Psychology where, if you want to practice (through further training) as a psychologist you have to have the Graduate Basis for Registration by doing an accredited first degree.

Even in Maths, Engineering, Computer Science, the job pathways aren't set as destinies. I also know plenty of IT specialists who were made redundant in the last (ongoing in my opinion) recession, they have usually got other jobs but in a couple of cases it took 6 months to a year to find something. There isn't a degree that guarantees future employment, even in the more obviously career-oriented paths, and that's something a lot of parents find quite hard to understand/accept (they feel there's a magic degree which only if their children took that, they would get employed securely as a result).

I'm assuming they don't have clear ideas about what they want to do, else they wouldn't be asking. I had a pretty clear idea at 16 if what I wanted to do, and that governed my A-level and degree choices. As it turns out, by the time I graduated, I was less clear, earning money was my main priority (not having rich parents,) and my life has taken quite a different path.

I did take a course I loved. There were core elements I wouldn't have chosen, but they turned out to be really interesting, and one thing I learnt was that I don't always know what I will like, if I'm judging it on uninformed preconceptions which turn out to be wrong. It made me more open to trying new things.