DS flunked his exam - predicted grades now AAD - should we apply for university this year?

[JudithTaverner]

So DS has just told me that he's predicted AAD (Maths, Physics, Further Maths) because he messed up/misread the question in his summer exams. He wants to study engineering.

Is it worth applying to universities now? He expects to get an A in further maths (seems D is way below his capability). Even allowing for his overconfidence, I would expect him to get at least a B. If this happens, would he get a place through clearing?

Or should he take a year out and apply next year?

He has ASD if that's relevant.

Thanks!

To be honest this should have been sorted months ago...

because he messed up/misread the question in his summer exams

This simply isn't true. How many further maths modules did he sit in the summer? Usually he would have sat at least 3 for AS Further maths, and his AS grade will be used to predict his A-level grade. What did he get for his AS?

Given that each exam paper is about 9 questions long, misreading a question is not going to get him from an A to a D. Not revising properly and messing up all his modules will get him from an A to a D.

If he wants the teacher to predict higher than his AS grade then he will need to be resitting at least some of the modules and have some sort of action plan regarding how he will improve his scores in both his resits and his A2 modules.

I don't think he's telling you the whole story.

IIWY I would be trying to figure out why he is not being completely honest with me. If he is putting so little effort into the application process, it seems like he isn't really interested in going to university. As pp said, there are probably larger issues at play.

As school have finished early I presume they are back in the first week? Trying to get a face to face very quickly will help no end.

In the meantime try contacting various admissions offices and see what advice they give.

I don't think all is lost at all but I am not sure there was a clear path in the first place. Maybe another year would just give him that bit more time to work it out himself. What about FE college? Work experience?

Try not to let it bother you too much over the holidays other than getting that ground work done.

It can be hard when kids get to this age. They still need their parents but struggle to ask.

they were all told that it wasn't worth doing a 4th A level, that universities don't really ask for it and that the likelihood is that a 4th A Level would reduce the grades in the other 3.

Yes, I get that, but FM is not regarded as a fourth A Level in that way - not in the same way as Maths, Physics, Chemistry and History would be regarded as four A Levels, iyswim. It's not a totally separate discipline if he's also doing Maths. That's why I said the school advised him badly.

Where does the further maths a level doesn't count as a full a level come from I thought it was only something that was relevant to medics. DD2 did maths, further maths and chemistry it was no hindrance.

Whether or not FM counts as a full A level is a bit of a moot point if he is halfway through Y13.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with him doing only three A'levels. The math plus further maths is not a problem for the vast majority of courses and getting three good A levels is a whole lot more important that four A'levels at lower grades.

AAD are awkward grades but he should still find plenty of places to apply to. Even though he's very bright might he do better at a University with lower entry requirements, perhaps one with more course work rather than more exam based?

I was just reassuring the OP that he hasn't been badly advised by taking three perfectly normal a levels

Ds1 is doing Further Maths and we have been warned to expect wildly varying grades for FM. Apparently you can lose a lot of marks because of making an error early on which "carries forward" so that it affects many other parts of the question, and so an A grade student can crash down through the grades, if they make that sort of error. Equally, if they don't slip up, they can still achieve the higher grades.

Not sure if that is the same for your son but it might give you a new angle to ask about.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross

Even top Engineering courses such as Warwick count Further Maths as a full A'level. So Maths + FM +physics would be perfectly acceptable.

Its simply bad advice to say that FM won't be counted as a full A'level for all but a very, very few courses.

My daughter got an E and a U for two Maths modules in the January of A2 but much better grades in other modules. She found Mechanics really difficult but did much better with Core and Decision. She resat the two bad ones in the summer and ended up with A for Maths & B for Further Maths. The way the system works is they take the best results from all the modules to make the Maths grade and then the next best to make the Further Maths grade so I think it unlikely that one bad module result would result in a D if all the other results were good.

So, yes, I doubt that you have heard the true story. Don't be angry with him, though. It's not his fault if he's struggling and students with ASD can find it even harder to cope with lack of success than other students and often go into denial as a coping strategy.

In terms of what to do now, realistically you are not going to be able to have a proper conversation with his teachers until January so you need to make a decision about his UCAS application now.

I think you need to sit down with him and have a very serious discussion and not let him evade the issue. With that D on his predicted grades, he may get rejected by his first choice universities. Does he feel that he can cope with possible rejections and take the chance? Is he willing to settle for an insurance choice? Or would he rather get his results and then apply on the back of them with more certainty about the outcome?

If he struggles with organisation and /or motivation, he needs to think hard about the course structure, teaching styles and examination methods at his chosen universities . You say he hasn't done a lot of research - he needs to do this as a matter of urgency .

DD went to a university with very low contact hours where students need to be very focussed , mature, self motivated and love their subject. She was none of these things and really REALLY struggled ( she has no SN) .

This is interesting and very late. My sons (private school) much much earlier this term had predicted grades, parents informed, then a parents' evening at school where some parents were trying to get the predictions increased I think although as mine got AAAA in AS and the predicteds were a bit higher we had no argument (mine are not applying for Oxbridge). The first draft of the ucas personal statement was done back in July and entries have been submitted and as you'll see on further education threads children have been getting offers so I don't know why his school seems so very late about all this.

Anyway he is not too late for the deadlines. It sounds like the school have really got this wrong on the AAD prediction and need to have a conversation with you and your son about increasing that D. Did he do 4 subjects in lower sixth and now is doing 3 A2 which would be the more usual thing? If he did AS public exams this summer those grades go on the UCAS form. I may have missed some posts on the thread.

I think you should 1. persuade the school to up the D on the UCAS form and then get the form submitted. If they won't change it then he will just have to submit it as it is. 2 Then hope as you say in clearing he might get a place particularly if he exceeds his offer. 3. If it all goes very wrong reapply during a gap year. Hedda's points about module marks sound accurate (but my boys are not doing maths so I've no experience of that beyond GCSE to add anything).

He is motivated to go to university - unfortunately (for him) he onlly wants to go to the top universities.

He's with his dad this weekend so I will sit down and talk to him over Christmas and get a plan of action. I agree that he's been avoiding thinking/talking about this. I'll try to see his teacher in the first week back (back on the 3rd Jan) so we do have some time.

It may be that a year off will do him lots of good. But due to his lack of organisation (and motivation) I'd have to help him sort out something very structured otherwise he'll just spend a year in front of his computer in his bedroom.

He needs to find a course with a lot of contact. Probably all exam based - he's really not good at course work.

ds is not capable of doing these things on his own

I'm fairly sure my daughter already had her conditional offers by this time, with only one of the london ones outstanding, as they do it in stages.

This may be true but ALL applications received by the final deadline in January MUST be given equal consideration. Courses only make early offers if they are sure they have enough places available for later applications. There is absolutely NO advantage in terms of getting an offer, by applying earlier.

OP, your son has a bigger problem than his predictions. A teacher does not predict a D in FM for no reason. If he is struggling in FM, he is likely to struggle with the maths content of engineering at university. A low grade in FM is a predictor of poor performance on such courses. Having a low grade in FM is actually worse than not having FM at all, from an admissions perspective.

No, of course not, and no need to shout, I wasn't trying to imply there was any advantage, simply demonstrating that most kids had it done by now and how far along the process would be. Of course unis will review all applicants received by mid JAN.

Pushing for early applications is a bit of a sore point in our school. Teachers are loath to make predicted grades any sooner than October as the students have only been in courses since June (Scottish system) so getting applications done super early isn't possible. We are, however, under huge pressure from certain parents who would rather the application was sent a step they believe it gives an advantage. I 100% understand their anxiety but early applications do not give benefit (other than just getting it done - which is fair enough actually!)

I agree. I was very pleased the school got the boys do to draft personal statements in July and I am glad they got their applications in by about half term but I think we all know that is just a psychological security in getting it done early. You have as people are saying an equal chance if you get it in even just days before the deadline. It's also quite nice for my two that they have some offers already and they can get on with A2 work without having to spend time thinking about personal statements.

I don't think this boy needs to panic even if the predicted D is not improved as he might still get a high mark. IN fact he could mention on the personal statement something about that perhaps. I know mine did or the school did where relevant on sometong - one got almost full marks in an AS in his potential university subject so sounded like a good idea to make that clear on the school reference I think it was.

EnormousTiger. It's really sweet how proud you are of your twins but you don't need to tell us their grades every time you post. Otherwise you are going to have to change your name to EnormousTigerMum 😂

User7124
A low grade in FM is a predictor of poor performance on such courses. Having a low grade in FM is actually worse than not having FM at all, from an admissions perspective.

That's interesting but I'd love to know where the data is for this. I'm not doubting it I'm just curious. Logically, I can see how it would apply for the highest tariff universities but I wonder if it's also true for lower ones.

You might also think having some exposure to FM topics even if you perform poorly in you exam might be of some benefit.

Sorry for derailing.

He needs to find a course with a lot of contact.

My dd is applying for mechanical engineering. I have heard from several places that engineering has the most contact time of any subject, apart from medicine.

AFAIK none of the courses she looked at are entirely exam based, they all have some element of project work. DD's feeling is that the courses are all somewhat similar, because they are all accredited by the same professional bodies.

Also, as pp said, for most you have to apply for a specific discipline - civil, mechanical, electrical, etc. There are only a small number of unis offering general engineering where you specialise later on.

That's interesting but I'd love to know where the data is for this

I'm not aware of data in the public domain. I have seen extensive internal data from RG universities on this topic.

In general an A2 grade of C or below is an indicator of likely poor performance (at least in science) at RG universities. The issues that caused the student to get a C or lower, whatever they were, are very likely to show up during the undergraduate course. University courses that can afford to do so tend not to take students with Cs in any A2 subject, even if overall the student has grades that are points equivalent to the required entry grades. (So even if A star, A star C is points equivalent to AAA quite a few courses simply wouldn't take the C.)

BTW few students going into the lowest tariff universities have taken FM so I'm not sure there is enough data about them to be meaningful.

For OP, while courses would prefer not to take a C grade, of course a lot of them still will take a C grade, so definitely worth applying.