Room in student house without a window

[Evalina]

DD's in her second year and has moved into what is otherwise a nice student house. However her room has no window. It has 2 doors, one into the hall and the other into a kitchen/lounge. So she has no natural light and no direct ventilation. She does get some light (and reduced privacy) through the frosted glazed door between her and the kitchen, but if she opens it to get air, then she gets cooking fumes and noise too.

We have raised it with local council HMO office who are not being very responsive, although they have spoken to landlord who has put in a brighter lightbulb! Landlord has said to DD's housemates that he knows loads of people at the council, and that if he's told to do anything it won't happen until next summer, so DD is wasting her time complaining about it. He's also said his wife is having a baby and is stressed at the thought they might have to pay to sort it out. As a result DD's housemates, who all have nice rooms with proper windows, are telling her to drop it, even though they have all declined to swap rooms with her.

I believe the problem could be fixed for less than £5k, which given collectively they are paying £38k in rent for the year is not too shocking.

Not sure what else to do really. Anyone got any advice?

I think you are in a hiding to nothing thinking about fire doors and regulations. What do you really think is going to happen? A better skylight?

I had this at uni, although it was with a bunch of randoms. I had the box room, no window and two doors.

Yes, it was depressing. And I came to really resent the beautiful massive rooms that everyone else had. But I was last in, and paid less.

Her flatemates have done a number on her. They will not stop and she's being daft to think that they will.

She should find somewhere else to live, then tell them that she is moving out. However, she must explain to them that she is really fond of them, but hates her room. It's nothing personal and she hopes they will still be friends.

If she continues in with housing officers and the like, it will provoke the landlord, perhaps force work to be done, and that will build up resentment and fracture her friendships.

Keep up the good work op. I wish I'd had a mother like you who had my back. If you do find out that something is amiss with licensing hmos locally then you would have made things safer for many people.

I can't believe anyone is suggesting that I drop it whilst believing the house does not meet fire regulations. I need to get a definitive answer on that from the Fire Service. That is in the interests of all of them in the house whether they realise it or not.

As for ventilation and light, yes she would probably just live with it if it really is allowed, but that won't be good for her health either.

I suppose my rationale is that her friends are decent people who firstly have not really understood the issue, and secondly have been turned against my DD by the LL and his story of his stressed pregnant wife. I hope that if they realise the LL has put their lives at risk that they will rally round my DD.

I really hope so.

in Canada these are called illegal suites. definitely pursue this issue if not for your daughter's health but indeed for those that may come after her.
fwiw my son stayed in an illegal suite while attending college, we pointed out the issues to him (windows sealed shut with layers upon layers of paint) windows did not meet code for evacuation and the lack of a fire door. this living arrangement was organized by my son and his two friends, they were young and didn't know any better.

I'm delurking to strengthen your resolve, Evalina. You've highlighted for the many silent followers of this thread the need to check and double-check student accommodation, even if it is fully certified. My own DC is in year 1, but come next year he will be searching with much greater knowledge, thanks to this thread.

Putting that aside, I appreciate people saying that your DD shouldn't make waves and ruin her friendship circle, but personally I'd find living in such a room hellish, with no ventilation and constant cooking smells, even putting aside the lack of natural light. If she's asking for your help, then of course you should support her!

op you can definitely buy glazed inter fire doors.Just google it! they re about £500.the ventilation thing is nice, but not a legal requirement

Fuck me, ignore the posters saying drop it. Yes she might might waves with her friends, but if she moves out she will make new ones I promise and people will understand why she moved out. Ventilation is more than just a nice bonus.

We had serious damp/uninhabitable house, plants growing in the internal walls etc. I wish my DMIL had backed me up. After 3 weeks in a windowless room I'd already be struggling now.

So what if a generation ago others lived through a box room, your daughter did not choose this or agree to this but was dumped on her so her really not friends could bag themselves a nice house. They deliberately seemed to have times things to exclude her and dump it on her.

I wouldn't drop it but I would be very clear with DD about what the goals are. If there are issues with no window/ventilation/terrible fire safety, it sounds like they'll have to move out - either because he won't fix it, or because the house will then become a building site and may well end up with less than 6 bedrooms if some were not designed to be bedrooms and are not compatible. That means she and her flatmates could end up with nowhere to live. From a safety point of view, that might be unavoidable, but if there's really no other 6 bedroomed places to rent, it will cause issues. From the other students point of view, they'll lose the house they chose and were happy in because of you, and I'd be a bit worried that they could then rent a four or five bed place without DD and she'd then feel more depressed.

Can you speak to them all before getting anyone else involved? They may prefer DD to leave, if she wants, and they all pay more for their rooms and just split it five ways. They may be on side to report it and start looking for somewhere else to live. I'd talk to them first, though.

I'm astonished that everyone you've talked to has been so unhelpful, too. The council man and now the forewoman saying glazed doors can't be fire doors. They absolutely can.

It seems really unusual for students to be on a joint contract, which seems fishy. Individual contracts are standard, by far.

Anyway I hope your DD does okay and she can leave if she wants, with or without her flatmates.

a7mints - have you read the Housing Act and what it has to say about ventilation? Clearly you haven't or you would know that this is wrong. Ventilation isn't some nice to have extra like wallpaper.

www.nihe.gov.uk/index/advice/renting_privately/advice_landlords/standards_of_fitness.htm

*"Ventilation

All habitable rooms should be ventilated directly to the open air by an opening window. *

For the avoidance of doubt a bedroom is a habitable room.

we have Housing Acts and have had for a number of years to get rid of rooms like this. this isn't a bedroom its a cupboard.

I am just frankly stunned at the number of people on here who have no idea what the Fitness Standard is, what makes a property unfit for Human Habitation and the role played in this by the Housing Acts enforced by the Local Authority.

as far back as the 1957 HA internal rooms with no fresh air were unacceptable.

Does the property have working smoke alarms? what about a CO monitor?

At the very least the room requires fresh air through airbricks or trickle vents not by opening an internal door.

This landlord cannot possibly have drawn up a proper fire risk assessment. because had he have done, it would have shown that the current arrangements aren't acceptable.

a fire door isn't just a door. it has to have self closers on it and a sign saying it mustn't be propped open otherwise its just a bloody chocolate teapot against a fire isn't it.

I am also amazed at the number of people who think it should be left. they must be fortunate and never seen the speed with which fire rips through a building and what it does to the people in it. or ever read in a newspaper about CO poisoning and how it kills people.

if you own a property, you let it out and you get in the rent then you have a legal duty to comply with everything required. the standards are there for a good reason.

all those saying stop making a fuss would you let your DC's jump in and drive a car with bald tyres? would you be happy to let them drive without insurance? how would you feel if the next year this accommodation went up in flames and students were killed. it happens and its horrible.

The final thing before I go into full rant mode is that if the Landlord is not complying with the law then this nullifies his insurances. in all landlord insurance small print it says that insurance will not pay out if you have not complied with the law in any way. so basically the man is being a twat to himself because if there were a fire his insurance would payout diddly swat.

Thank you mummymeister, you are really helping me with my resolve to find a solution to this. I am quite concerned about the fact that she is effectively sharing a room with a boiler. I am going to order her a CO2 monitor for her bedroom now.

I am fairly comfortable that changes could be made to the property relatively quickly to make it compliant to the regulations as I understand them. I believe what is required is:

The upvc door to the kitchen to be removed, and in its place new partition walls installed to extend the room slightly so that the existing skylight in the corner of the kitchen/lounge is incorporated into her bedroom (ideally with enough room for her to put her desk in this space, as that would be most logical.

This would give DD direct air and light into her bedroom. I cannot see that this is a big job, and could either be done over a weekend, or if it turns out to be more intrusive, over the Christmas holidays.

Fire doors to be installed on every bedroom door - so that's 6 new doors.

My understanding is that they cannot be evicted, as they have not broken their contract. If we can get confirmation that the set up does not meet regulations, then the council cannot issue the HMO licence. That means the Landlord should be keen to get the work done quickly so that he can get the licence. He will need this done by the university accommodation fair in January if he wishes to let it to students next year. Also if he delays making changes all of the students in the house can apply for a rent rebate for the period that the house is unlicensed, which should focus his attentions a bit.

I will also suggest to the Fire Service (and the university), that they make a check on all other properties owned by the same Landlord - but first of all we do need someone in authority either at the council or the local Fire Service to confirm that the current setup is not legal, and I'm not at that point yet.

I also think you're right to pursue this op. Stopping an unscrupulous landlord and setting an example to others who may be tempted to bend the rules a bit is more important than upsetting anyone.

DS is in a ground floor room adjacent to the kitchen and your thread prompted me to ask about how he would get out in the event of a fire. Thankfully his room door exits to the hall not the kitchen and he also has patio doors into the garden. He shares with 3 others and there has been much discussion about who would have which room and making sure everyone was happy with their choice.

Mummymeister - we are on the same side - but that link is for NI. If the OP is in England there is no longer a fitness standard, HHSRS has replaced it. This is separate from HMO licensing also.

stonecircle DD also has a door to the hallway as well, so she does have an exit route. This is the reason that the HMO officer gave for it being ok.

The problem is that she has no fire protection between herself and the kitchen which is a high risk room in a high risk house. The issue is that in an early fire that fumes/smoke are the main problem, and if that happens fast whilst she is asleep she may not wake up in time to use the exit. The regulations mandate fire doors in this type of house to keep fire and fumes at bay for 30 minutes, in order for alarms to sound, residents to register that they have and to exit the property safely.

It is very hard to understand the regulations, as it all relies on a risk assessment which seems to be more of a judgement, as the regulations cannot cater for every single scenario.

It sounds like your DS's room is ok. The wall between his room and the kitchen should have fire resistant material in I think, but I have not looked closely at that.

What about asking him to fit an extractor fan into an outside wall? It wouldn't cost much at all- my husband just fitted one into a downstairs toilet - in total cost £200 to fit- it's a 'silent' one so very little noise.

There is no outside wall. It's a terraced house, with a flat roof extension at the back.

Regardless of whether there is the correct door or a smoke alarm fitted, a room without a window is a cupboard. The landlord may believe he is sticking to the regulations but anyone with half a brain can see this is ethically unsound. I wouldn't let my child sleep there. I once booked into a hotel late at night in Spain on my own and only realised (when I drew the curtains) that there was no window! I ended up sleeping in the lobby on a sofa, it was so claustrophobic.

You do know half of London live in basement flats? It's fine

She has two doors to choose what to open for ventilation when she's in there. She can easily study with the hall or kitchen or both doors slightly open in evening.

There are fire alarms, and she has two exits

Half the population even with giant windows sleep with them closed. It's fine

She will be in daylight all day out at uni or work or at flat in other parts of home that have Windows. Her one room can be opened up every morning and evening. She's not spending 24:7 for a year in a locked basement without air.

Mountain out of a molehill

And why does every room need fire doors? Nobody has firedoors at home. We have an open plan living and kitchen area and a regular door to bedroom which is usually left open anyway. Never had I visited anyone who has self closing fire doors in own home

Art - the risk factor in a HMO is he presence of other family 'units' or occupiers. John down the hall could have 10 candles going, Emma is frying in the kitchen and gets distracted, Marie falls asleep whilst smoking. Stop excusing poor lazy landlords when you know nothing about the relevant laws.

A basement flat is not the same as having no windows. PseudoBadger - exactly! I can't believe how many people are defending the landlord - it's not fine. This is not a freebie. The OP's daughter is paying the going rate for a room - and this is not a room.

But I live in a flat. No fire doors except front door. We have another exit to the roof, but those in flats below don't. Almost all flats only have one exit. It's not bad landlords, it's how flats are built. If the flats on 5th floor with front door, where would they put another exit?
New build flats can have flats right next door. All open plan. No fire doors. All owned so no issue with landlords, it's just how they are built

A basement flat is exactly the same. If it hasn't a window it hasn't one regardless of level. It's not deadly.

She chose and agreed with the room. If I was landlord I would be pissed off also. If she didn't like the Lack of light she could have not signed up for it, and paid more to live elsewhere.

Why are you talking about self contained flats?! This is not a self contained flat. End of.

The laws regarding flats and HMOs are completely different! And if you are living in a basement flat without a window then you are being exploited!

No I don't live in a basement flat, but they are underground so the majority will only have windows at the front maximum. That's what lightbulbs are for

She chose and agreed with the room

I don't think she chose it, she got left with it.