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Original poster

Room in student house without a window

399 replies

Evalina · 05/10/2016 22:59

DD's in her second year and has moved into what is otherwise a nice student house. However her room has no window. It has 2 doors, one into the hall and the other into a kitchen/lounge. So she has no natural light and no direct ventilation. She does get some light (and reduced privacy) through the frosted glazed door between her and the kitchen, but if she opens it to get air, then she gets cooking fumes and noise too.

We have raised it with local council HMO office who are not being very responsive, although they have spoken to landlord who has put in a brighter lightbulb! Landlord has said to DD's housemates that he knows loads of people at the council, and that if he's told to do anything it won't happen until next summer, so DD is wasting her time complaining about it. He's also said his wife is having a baby and is stressed at the thought they might have to pay to sort it out. As a result DD's housemates, who all have nice rooms with proper windows, are telling her to drop it, even though they have all declined to swap rooms with her.

I believe the problem could be fixed for less than £5k, which given collectively they are paying £38k in rent for the year is not too shocking.

Not sure what else to do really. Anyone got any advice?

OP posts:
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Original poster
Evalina · 09/10/2016 15:03

The point with HMOs is that 'other people' cook in the shared space. If you are in a flat, or a bedsit, then you are the ones doing the cooking, you take responsibility for your own safety.

In a household of multiple occupants you are not one household with people cooking together, which makes the risk of fire much much higher, which is why extra precautions and a licence are legally required.

DD could be asleep, and one of her friends could be cooking after returning home drunk in the early hours, they could go off to the toilet and forget about the pan on the hob. This sadly happens quite a lot, and is why HMOs have higher standards than a standard family house.

Basement flats with their own cooking facilities and some light/ventilation through windows are absolutely fine, and if we get the changes made that we would like, then DD's light would come through a small skylight, so would probably be similar to a basement room. It would still be nowhere near equivalent to the large bay windows in a couple of other rooms, and that's fine, she's not asking for that.

OP posts:
Artandco · 09/10/2016 15:10

But many people flat share. Dh and I lived in a few before children. 3 bed flats, different people in each bedroom, open plan living kitchen areas. All very nice, no fire doors in sight, and only entrance the flat front door.

fastdaytears · 09/10/2016 15:45

art that would be classified as an HMO now

GardenGeek · 09/10/2016 16:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Evalina · 09/10/2016 16:28

I think this is a definition of an HMO "HMO licensing is mandatory for any property that meets the following conditions: It is let to 5 or more people (who are not members of the same family), those tenants share living facilities such as kitchens or bathrooms and the property is at least 3 storeys high. A storey is taken to include basements, attics and any other storey which is used wholly or partly as living accommodation."

There is a big difference to a flat with 3 bedrooms on one floor, to a house with 6 bedrooms across 3 storeys.

OP posts:
fastdaytears · 09/10/2016 16:38

Evelina I think it's 3 unrelated people, so Art's flat share was an HMO and would have been subject to the licensing restrictions if she lived there now.

Your definition is of a large HMO

PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 16:39

Here's the .gov definition - not all HMOs are licensable.

Room in student house without a window
PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 16:45

However due to Selective Licensing, some authorities can chose what types of property are licensed. For example in Newham, all private rented accommodation requires a licence or there will be a fine up to £20k.
Re. HMOs they also must be planning class C4....

fastdaytears · 09/10/2016 16:54

Oxford (where I live) requires licences for all HMOs even a 3 bed flat.

LIZS · 09/10/2016 16:57

But even unlicensed must meet specific criteria.

PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 17:00

Licensing is just an added layer - the key thing in England is HHSRS

Original poster
Evalina · 09/10/2016 17:05

So I asked the council guy to do an HHSRS and he said he had, and he determined that the lighting level in DD's room was 2 which was acceptable. However he didn't noticeably measure the light in the room on his visit, and hasn't been back as far as we know, so does anyone know how this is measured?

Also he said the HHSRS does not require him to assess ventilation at all, which I found strange. I have requested a copy of the assessment, although I have no idea what it will say or if they will actually send it to me.

OP posts:
PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 17:09

If you google HHSRS Operating Guidance you can download it and view all the hazards and the scoring.

PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 17:13

Lighting starts at page 99

a7mints · 09/10/2016 17:14

The DD's room has just been inspected and relicensed as meeting the standards necessary.
Game over.

PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 17:17

Inadequate Ventilation will cross many of the 29 hazards: for example impacting upon Damp and Mould Growth, Excess Heat and Pollutants.

PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 17:20

If the room is as you say, upon reviewing the sections 13.11 through to 3.16 personally I cannot see how it would not be a Cat 1 hazard for lighting. However I'm not there doing the assessment.

PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 17:24

www.ihsti.com/lacors/ContentDetails.aspx?id=15264 Worked examples of HHSRS lighting assessments

Original poster
Evalina · 09/10/2016 17:42

Thank you just reading through the documents. So he hasn't been to assess the property, as I requested, as he would have needed to request access.

Just read the examples, thank you Pseudo Badger. This one sounds quite similar to DD's room:

"A basement flat in a Georgian Building, with commercial use on the ground floor, and bed-sit accommodation on the floors above. The flat has no windows direct to the outside, the only natural light being via two opaque glass block light-wells into the living room and bedroom only. Artificial lighting is required for virtually all normal activities. The outlook from the accommodation is non-existent. Hazard Band B (category 1)."

Although a key difference is that the whole flat doesn't have natural light, whereas DD can go into the kitchen to get it, so not sure if that is enough to move it to a Category 2. Maybe it is.

Re the HHSRS, I can only think he is relying on one done 5 years ago. If so he has ignored my request to do one. Can I insist I wonder?

The HMO officer said he was going to reissue the licence, but I don't know if that has happened. The firewoman was going to speak to him last week, so in theory that may have stopped him being able to. Even if it has, I would expect any hazard identified to be rectified.

OP posts:
Original poster
Evalina · 09/10/2016 17:51

oh just read paragraphs 13.11 to 13.16. It seems very clear that DD's room is a hazard from reading that, and I can't see how it could be anything other than a Category 1.

13.13 Windows should be wide enough to provide for a reasonable view of the immediate surroundings ... Ideally, the views should be of open space through windows of all rooms other than those where privacy is
required such as bathrooms and wc compartments.

13.15 Matters relevant to the likelihood of an occurrence and the severity of the outcomes include:
a) Obstruction – of windows by buildings or other features.
b) Size, shape and position – inadequate size, inappropriate shape and/or position of windows preventing reasonable penetration of daylight into room.
f) Window view – inappropriate shape and/or size of window preventing view of outside

13.16 The assessment should include the views from windows and the adequacy of both artificial and natural lighting for the dwelling as a whole

OP posts:
AmbivalentGirl · 09/10/2016 17:57

On every student thread, you get the usual quota of people claiming they slept in a soggy cardboard box throughout the duration of their degree and that modern students don't know they're born. Despite the fact that they paid fuck all in tuition for the pleasure and walked into a job upon graduation.

Presumably it is those same idiots running these shit student houses.

Artandco · 09/10/2016 18:01

I'm not that old, I was a student myself not that long ago

I just don't see the issue still. She looked at room, and agreed, so is now going back on what she agreed. Not on. The landlord never lied and said that room had windows, it's never had them. Therefore she now, unfortunately has to live with the consequences. It's only until next summer, and has holidays in between

PseudoBadger · 09/10/2016 18:06

HHSRS applies to current and any future occupants. Therefore it's irrelevant whether she agreed to anything, and whether she will be leaving. Are you a student landlord?

Artandco · 09/10/2016 18:09

No. but I rent myself. I just think if you don't like something, you don't agree to it and then make a huge fuss afterwards about something you were fine to agree to initially.
And for a student it's already October, she will move houses in July, no doubt with a few weeks home at Xmas and Easter. So it's maybe 6-7 months maximum. Just live with it, and be better next year at looking at places better before agreeing