Room in student house without a window

[Evalina]

DD's in her second year and has moved into what is otherwise a nice student house. However her room has no window. It has 2 doors, one into the hall and the other into a kitchen/lounge. So she has no natural light and no direct ventilation. She does get some light (and reduced privacy) through the frosted glazed door between her and the kitchen, but if she opens it to get air, then she gets cooking fumes and noise too.

We have raised it with local council HMO office who are not being very responsive, although they have spoken to landlord who has put in a brighter lightbulb! Landlord has said to DD's housemates that he knows loads of people at the council, and that if he's told to do anything it won't happen until next summer, so DD is wasting her time complaining about it. He's also said his wife is having a baby and is stressed at the thought they might have to pay to sort it out. As a result DD's housemates, who all have nice rooms with proper windows, are telling her to drop it, even though they have all declined to swap rooms with her.

I believe the problem could be fixed for less than £5k, which given collectively they are paying £38k in rent for the year is not too shocking.

Not sure what else to do really. Anyone got any advice?

I would accept the fact that landlord has said very clearly that they won't be making any improvements, and decide whether the likely effect of getting official reports drawn up was just going to make my child homeless tbh. If I was the landlord, with no intention to make improvements, I would downgrade it to a 5 bed and let the tenants decide who was moving out in order to comply with the new license. I'm going to bet that will be your dd, as she is the one in the 'unsatisfactory' room. Given that the council have effectively shrugged and said it was fine, I think being overly precious about a shit room for a year could be counter-productive. It's all part of the learning curve - maybe next year dd will insert herself into the house seeking in a more assertive manner. Maybe she could lead the charge and take on the responsibility? That way she can be the one holding the straws?
I am also really surprised at the number of people who think constant room switching is a solution. That sounds terrible - what an upheaval! Surely once you get yourself comfortable, the last thing you want is to take an entire weekend out to play musical bedrooms?

there are 2 reasons for getting the fire officer round to do an inspection. the first one is obvious. this house doesn't comply. I am an ex eho who has inspected hundreds of HMO's and whilst I haven't practiced for a few years the basics of hmo legislation and fire protection/ risk assessment remain the same. it concerns me when properties don't comply with FRA because I have seen the horrible outcomes.

second reason is that sometimes it takes a bit of a shake up to make people act. whether that is the landlord or the licencing authority I don't know but by involving someone else it starts to shine a light on the problem.

the landlords personal circumstances are irrelevant. so what if he has a young family that doesn't exempt him from the law.

too many landlords get away with things because of the "i'll throw you out" or if you make life awkward for me I will make it awkward for you type comments.

I really think your daughter has to start being an adult in all of this. she has to tell her flatmates what the problems are and put up a variety of solutions. really for the sake of her mental health, this needs resolving or she needs to move.

I would also query the agent's role in marketing unsuitable properties with unsuitable rooms. The poorest properties should be filtered out but if there is a shortage of housing, this does not happen as it should. University accommodation officers are only ever bothered about the houses on their books and not others. The long and the short of it is that these students should not have rented this house. My DD and her friends would Never have taken such a property, so why did these students? They left it too late to get somewhere better I suspect. Lots of lessons to be learned. Since when did housing officers ever bother about student houses? That'll be the day!

With friends like that who needs enemies.
Your poor dd.
The landlord telling her he had friends in high places ( the local council) and she would get nowhere..., now that would seriously get to me.
I would go higher
Go to a different department - fire safety?'
How dare he flout rules because he knows someone. I thought things like that didn't happen in the UK.
Are you in Ireland?

Without knowing the OP's Dd's circumstances , there's legal , and what you would like. They are two different things.

DD is in England. We now have her local councillor (who has just graduated from the same uni) looking into it, and the fire service expressing some concern.

As the contract is joint and several, DD cannot be forced to leave on her own. I also don't believe any of them can be forced to leave as they have not breached their contract.

If the fire department insist on a fire door, then the room would not meet the minimum light requirements, and the HMO licence would not be granted/revoked, with a condition that the LL needs to improve the light, eg by enclosing the skylight into the room. If he doesn't then it seems none of the house would need to pay rent until the HMO licence was issued, plus the LL would be liable for a £20k fine. So in theory he has to weigh up the loss of c£35k in rent plus the £20k fine, against the c£3-5k of making the changes.

If the fire service say it is safe, then yes DD has to either live with it (along with plants and lamps), or find another room.

I have heard nothing more today, so guess we need to wait until next week..

She turned up late the the viewing, and wasn't there when they drew straws for the room choice. Of course she got the worst room. The problem could be fixed by moving to a different flat. Lesson learned for next year I guess.

Sounds awful OP. I haven't read all of this, so apologies if i'm repeating what others have said.

Dealing with councils is v difficult. In my experience they generally ignore emails and phone calls. You just have to grit your teeth and keep on at them. It took my council weeks just to email me a form - I probably asked for it at least half a dozen times.

Take a look on gov.org.uk to see if there is any written rules regarding your situation. Also, there are websites for landlords which would probably help.

hi op get back onto the fire service on Monday. you need them to come out and inspect. you are right. the landlord isn't in it for charity its all about the money. he cant evict them because they made a complaint.

if works are needed a notice can be served. we used to give 60 days, less if we thought it was urgent.

not a nice way for your dd to learn the lesson I guess but I do hope that you/she pursue this or he gets away with it again next year.

and just as an aside, when I was an eho if we served one notice on a landlords rented property we inspected all the others he/she owned because chances are they weren't up to scratch either.

OP
If the fire department insist on a fire door, then the room would not meet the minimum light requirements

You can get glazed fire doors so it wouldn't be an issue. If this was the case you DD could suggest a fire door with as much glazing as possible.

The issue in the room isn't just light it is the lack of ventilation. the op's daughter props the door open to get air into the room. whatever sort of fire door they give her will be defeated if she props it open because it should have a self closer on it. the idea of getting the fire brigade involved is to hopefully force the landlord into putting in some fresh air ventilation. habitable rooms have to have fresh air. have already sent the link to this. if the door is glazed it will mean that the rest of the house can see in when she has the door shut unless she puts a curtain up at it which sort of defeats the glazing. she wouldn't want her flat mates to see her wandering around in her bedroom undressed.

The door is already glazed. Perhaps it's frosted.

Not sure how you think plants will survive. Sorry.

Also plants give out CO2 in the dark, not oxygen.

I think the more you and your dd press for improvements/try to get the landlord fined etc etc the more the flatmates will be thoroughly cheesed off and not want to remain your dd's friend. As it is they've not behaved very well so it won't take much for relations to sour.

I get that she covets the "room at the top", but why should the fellow there just give it up? Would your dd surrender that room if she had got it cos the bloke didn't like the windowless room? Suggesting sharing a room with one of the girls and splitting the rent would be a more workable option, if the landlord agrees/is forced to reduce the overall rent.

I would just encourage your dd to return to halls if the room is so dire - of course making sure she receives her deposit etc back.

I did originally think that the glazed & frosted door between DD's room and the kitchen/lounge was a fire door. It is quite heavy. However when the HMO officer told DD to keep the door open for air, I queried if this was allowed and he assured me it was not a fire door. It does have a small window above it, which can be opened, albeit not very far.

I did also ask the firewoman whether it could be a fire door and she said that if it was glazed then no it couldn't. She also said that from how I'd described the layout, that they wouldn't be happy with there being a door there at all - and would want it to be walled in. I presume this is because they know it will just be kept open a lot.

Unfortunately none of the other rooms are big enough for a second desk, although one of her friends has said DD can sometimes study on her desk, as she studies on her bed, so that could help. I will encourage DD to take her up on the offer.

I think if the firewoman confirms to the council that it is a fire risk, then DD's friends will be more understanding. They have mainly been sympathetic. It's just that the LL keeps 'dropping in' and being super friendly and chatting to them. He's undermining DD by saying that no-one else has had a problem and that he's a reputable LL accredited by the university (they found the house via the Uni careers fair) and that it's all legal and above board, so if I can prove it isn't then I think they would be behind her 100%.

I am really unhappy about how much he comes round as well. DD says it's fine as it's to fix problems, but as far as I can tell he's been round 3-4 times a week since they moved in, which seems excessive. He seems to be fixing genuine problems, but it makes me very uncomfortable that he is criticising her to them, plus the story about his poor pregnant wife being stressed about the cost of any work.

Even the HMO officer didn't phone to say he was going to come round. He knocked on the door just after 9am and DD was still in her pyjamas, but felt she had to show him her bedroom anyway.

I did also ask the firewoman whether it could be a fire door and she said that if it was glazed then no it couldn't

Oh dear the fire woman doesn't seem very clued up. You can get glazed fire doors. They come in different ratings e.g. 30 minute or 60 minute.
Suggest she tries googling...

Having said that I suspect the door isn't a fire door.

Have googled door, and I think it is an external door. It's heavy and made of white upvc. It opens into DD's room.

Her other door - to the hallway - isn't autoclosing, so maybe isn't a fire door either? If so, then if DD is sleeping in her room, and there is a fire in the kitchen, then I think it could very quickly go through her room and into the hallway, blocking off the escape route for those upstairs.

If it is a fire door, does it have to auto close?

the LL keeps 'dropping in'

Why? Doesn't he have to give at least 24 hours notice? And then they don't have to agree to it, if it's not convenient (unless it's an emergency.)

Well each time he is fixing things. There seem to be an awful lot of things that need fixing though. As he is fixing things, he is in theory responding to their requests, and so no he hasn't been giving notice. Certainly DD has no idea he's coming round.

Also the Council guy said he had done an HHSRS assessment of the room, which is when he determined that the lighting was a 2 and therefore acceptable. Except that he didn't measure anything when he paid his first visit to DD, and as far as she knows he hasn't been back. So either he guestimated the light level without any measurement, or he has somehow paid another visit without her being aware - into her locked room to which only she and the landlord have a key.

I have asked for a copy of the assessment and confirmation of the date it was carried out.

On the plus side, one of the parents of the other girls called me this evening. She was keen to understand more about the situation, and was really lovely. I think (hope) I managed to explain effectively why I was concerned.

This call I think was triggered by my realisation (fun couple of hours reading fire regs this afternoon) that DD's door to the hall was probably not a fire door either (no keep closed notice or self closing hinge). I think that this means that any fire would have a very quick alternative route via DD's bedroom to the hallway, effectively meaning that in the event of a fire that those upstairs would be very quickly trapped.

The point of the fire door between the kitchen and the hall is to hold the fire in the kitchen for 30 minutes in order to allow time for the household to escape by the other route (ie the front door). If the fire can go via a glass door into DD's bedroom and then onto a wood/plywood door they surely would only have a few minutes maximum.

So I asked DD some specific questions to try establish if her door is a fire door, and she told her friends, one of whom called her mum who called me. Of course it may be that it is a fire door, but for peace of mind I think we need to know, so I will definitely be asking the fire service to pay a visit to check it out first thing on Monday.

A fire door has to have a self closing device on it and a notice to say that it must not be propped open. it usually has an intumescent strip around it as well (the thing that expands on heating to seal the door and give a means of escape of 30 mins)

I would put money on this not being a fire door. in which case the landlords fire risk assessment is inaccurate and breaking the law. the key is to get that fire officer in to inspect asap.

hmo fires are quick and deadly. that's why hmos have to have fire risk assessments and single family houses don't - due to the increased risk.

I would get your daughter to ask the landlord for a copy of his risk assessment before he changes it when he knows the fire officer is inspecting. good luck.

What shocks me is that I interrogated the HMO officer specifically about the requirement to have a fire door between her room and the kitchen and he denied it was a requirement. But I found this paragraph in the guidelines:
12.2 Where the inner room is any other type of habitable
room (for example a living room, sleeping room, workroom or study) it should only be accepted if:

• the inner room has access to a suitable door opening onto an alternative safe route of escape, or it is situated on a floor which is not more than

4.5m above ground level and has an escape window leading directly to a place of ultimate safety;

• an adequate automatic fire detection and warning system is in place (see paragraphs 22-25); and
• a fire-resisting door of an appropriate standard is fitted between the inner and outer rooms (typically FD30S standard for non-high-risk outer rooms).

So my interpretation of the above is that the door from DD's room to the hallway should be FD30S (capable of withholding fire for 30 minutes), but as the kitchen is a high risk outer room presumably the requirement is even higher.

I think if the fire service confirm this is indeed a requirement, that I am going to lodge a formal complaint with the council. I dread to think how many HMOs this man has inspected and approved ignoring this fairly obvious requirement. Potentially loads of student houses in this city have been approved when they are not safe.

Or am I missing something?

OP there is no way for this to end well now.You are just winding your DD up, and alienating her fromeverybody by creating this friction.What you should be doing is encouraging her to make the room as nice as possible
Another thing, they are only 2 or 3 weeks in, and you , your DD and various posters on here think her housemates are horrible for not swapping with her!
Hopefully your DD has learned some important life lessons from this.

I disagree. I think your best bet is to try and get it classified as uninhabitable and get DD to move out, perhaps back into halls.