Room in student house without a window

[Evalina]

DD's in her second year and has moved into what is otherwise a nice student house. However her room has no window. It has 2 doors, one into the hall and the other into a kitchen/lounge. So she has no natural light and no direct ventilation. She does get some light (and reduced privacy) through the frosted glazed door between her and the kitchen, but if she opens it to get air, then she gets cooking fumes and noise too.

We have raised it with local council HMO office who are not being very responsive, although they have spoken to landlord who has put in a brighter lightbulb! Landlord has said to DD's housemates that he knows loads of people at the council, and that if he's told to do anything it won't happen until next summer, so DD is wasting her time complaining about it. He's also said his wife is having a baby and is stressed at the thought they might have to pay to sort it out. As a result DD's housemates, who all have nice rooms with proper windows, are telling her to drop it, even though they have all declined to swap rooms with her.

I believe the problem could be fixed for less than £5k, which given collectively they are paying £38k in rent for the year is not too shocking.

Not sure what else to do really. Anyone got any advice?

Well I agree that she should have noticed, but she didn't/doesn't remember the room not having a window and none of her friends did either. The reason being that the second door in her room is an exterior glazed and frosted door - so when you look into the room it is easy to assume that the door leads to the outside.

The Landlord could have pointed it, so then they could have made an informed decision, but he didn't. He has a web page for the house, and it's the only room without a picture.

On our part, we advised DD when looking to make sure they went with a Landlord accredited with the university and before signing contracts they asked for and took photos of the HMO licence and the gas safety certificate.

Funnily enough it didn't occur to us to advise DD to check that each room had a window.

I think it is reasonable for us to assume that a house in possession of the correct licences should have all bedrooms as suitable for human habitation.

But then how does the root cause get fixed? Landlord pockets cash, rents it next year to some poor innocent and the same happens again because 'there's no point fixing it as we are only here for a while". The way things are in local government these days, the little people have to fight for the greater good.

Oh for Goodness sake! If it's that bad, get her to move out!

The landlord will do nothing.
Her flatmates will do nothing.
She may end up getting all her flatmates on the wrong side of the landlord, so they will all fall out.

Ok, now am reading stuff on Ventilation. This would appear to be the key document - www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/468871/ADF_LOCKED.pdf

It does have some useful paragraphs, including this one which says:
5.15 A habitable room not containing openable windows may be ventilated through another habitable room (see Diagram 3) if:
a.there is, from the habitable rooms to outside, provision for both:
i)purge ventilation, one or more ventilation openings, with a total area given in Diagram 3 based on at least the combined floor area of the habitable rooms; and
ii)background ventilation of at least 8000 mm2 equivalent area; and
b.there is an area of permanent opening between the two rooms as given in Diagram 3 based on at least the combined floor area of the habitable rooms.

So not sure about a), but there is no permanent opening between the two rooms, so it definitely does not comply.

Yes that's the Building Regs. However that's not technically enforceable by Environmental Health. You could try Building Control.

She has nowhere to move to and wants to stay with her friends. She has a contract making her liable to pay rent at £128 a week until July, regardless of whether she is there or not.

Her choices are to put up with it, or to prove that it does not meet regulations. Hoping to do the latter, but if we can't then yes, she will need to put up with it. If it is legal, then in theory it is also safe, so yes, it's just tough luck and she will have to get on with it.

However from what I've discovered so far (from some great help and support on here - thank you!!), is that it doesn't seem to be legal nor safe - so of course we are going to try and get that rectified. The Landlord can be served with a notice enforcing changes.

I already had a discussion with Building Control, where until he knew which property it was he said it wouldn't comply. Then he went off to talk to the HMO officer, came back and said 'oh yes our surveyor signed it off under alternative guidelines so it's all above board" or something similar.

From that paragraph 5.15 and the diagram they reference, the whole of DD's door area would need to be permanently open to the other room. I cannot understand what 'alternative guidelines' there are that mean you don't need to bother with ventilation at all.

The HMO officer is saying "as building control are happy there's nothing I can do". It's so frustrating.

Ok it sounds very strange. Not how we would do things in my authority. So now go to the ward councillors and see what they say.

I did that on Thursday. Lovely chap, graduated this summer from the same uni, with a portfolio for 'Young people' or something like that. He promised to look into it and come back to me. Nothing yet.

And which Councillor has the portfolio for housing? Planning? Environmental Health?

very good point thank you. I will get onto that..

Evalina DS's bedroom-without-a-window-and-adjacent-to-the-kitchen-without-a-fire-door was clearly fit for human habitation in that he survived the year with rosy cheeks in place and still smiling despite one of the biggest workloads around (incl heavy textbooks - ask any fourth year medic) and I'm wondering if perhaps part of the reason was that I didn't go into overdrive about its awfulness. I have sympathy with your DD and wouldn't like it myself but honestly you're getting way over the top now - stand back!

good for your DS goodbyestranger. However the fact that someone survives living in unsuitable conditions doesn't make it ok, and it also doesn't mean that everyone else will be ok.

I wish whoever was in her room last year and the year before that had complained to the council - maybe if so we wouldn't be in this situation. I really don't get why people think it is so terrible to complain when something is clearly wrong. Practices like this should be highlighted so that they are changed. Just ignoring it is effectively supporting it.

Snippy response Evalina.

When parents bang on about how terrible things are it makes it ten times worse for the DC.

Maybe think about your own DD rather than going on a crusade, particularly if you worry about her mental health.

Someone else is in DS's room making a go of it and getting on with their (heavy workload) degree; someone was in it the year before and did the same (with a heavy workload degree). You've had plenty of helpful suggestions about plants and lamps and vents so why not do your DD a favour and spend your energies on a rapid response to the situation, improving and managing the situation in the next week or so, rather than insisting the place is uninhabitable? It's just about the worst way to go I'd have thought.

I haven't insisted the place in uninhabitable to DD and I have already ordered her lamps and other things to make it as nice as it can be, but the options are pretty limited. There is no realistic way to vent the room, as a vent in the glass kitchen door is probably not possible and if it was it would bring in cooking fumes and moisture and increase the fire risk. There is little point in putting a vent in the door to the hall as there is no access to direct air there either, as there is no window, and another door into a lobby area before you get outside.

I have suggested to DD that she get some plants, but suspect that they would die, which would be somewhat depressing.

Whilst I am gathering information and looking to understand the situation as much as well as escalating it, I am not sharing any level of detail with her. Merely I have told her that I am talking to the council to understand whether it is legal/safe or not.

Re your DS's former room, if you think it doesn't meet fire regulations, then why are you not reporting it to the council so that they can check it out?

Evalina- I would go back and say you need a copy of these "alternative guidelines " as you cannot see how to sufficiently ventilate the room.

To be honest Evalina, it didn't occur to me that it was a problem in terms of fire risk. His room was adjacent to the kitchen but common sense would tell me that had there been a fire he would have legged it out of the hall, through the front door and onto the street. I didn't think about him inhaling smoke in his sleep on the grounds that if I thought about every conceiveable hazard for my grown up children as they go about their university and post university lives, I'd go potty. Perhaps I'm negligent.

If he was adjacent to the kitchen, then it could be absolutely fine. The regulations for licenced HMOs say that there should be a fire door between the kitchen (a high risk room) capable of keeping a fire inside for 30 minutes, allowing everyone in the house time to exit via a protected pathway.

Much depends on the size of the property as well. If it's small - one or two storeys and say 3 residents, then the risk is much lower, which is why although it is still an HMO it is not required to be licenced. That's why we don't have fire doors in normal houses of course. Fewer number of residents will be located nearer to each other and be able to make sure they can all get out.

In DD's house there are 6 of them across 3 storeys. In the event of a fire I doubt they would even have a good idea of who was in the house, and of course it's one thing to bang on someone's door on your way out of the building, and another to go up 2 flights of stairs to do so.

In DD's situation, she is being advised to sleep with the door to the kitchen open in order to get air. So there is no protection at all in the event of a fire. With fire, fumes and smoke are the early danger, and it is very possible that fumes could knock her out before she heard any alarm.
This is why I am concerned.

With your DS's former place, if it had a fire door on the kitchen then I would imagine it is fine. If it was a smaller place with only a few bedrooms, then the same applies, possibly with no requirement to have a fire door at all. (I have not checked as this is not the layout for DD)

If it is a similar set up to the one that DD is in, then please call the local fire service, give them the address and explain what you know. Let them decide if they think it is a problem and if they want to pay a visit.

Ok, so let's say the authorities deem the room uninhabitable, and the landlord says, "Ok, it's a 5-bedroomed house now." Do you have a Plan B for your dd? What if the others will not share? She may have her money back but she won't be with her friends.

You may be on a crusade, but your dd may not thank you for the outcome.

The group have a joint and several contract for the house. The landlord has no power to evict them unless they have broken the terms of the contract which they haven't. They can all stay regardless of whether the Landlord decides that in the future he is going to let it as a 5 bedroom house.

The council have the power to order him to make the room habitable. If he doesn't in theory then he loses his HMO licence. Without a licence he is liable to a fine, and for the court to order the rent to be repaid to the whole house for the rest of the year. So in that instance, DD would still be in the room, but they collectively would save about £33k in rent.

Only when the contract ends can he then decide it is a 5 bedroom house.

Lots of people at uni fall out with housemates or have unsuitable rooms and leave/moveout. Some take up empty spaces in other houses, some move into halls and they make new better friends and it's all good.
Much better than a cave with no fresh air, I would feel ill in no time living like that

Unfortunately moving out seems to be the best option - hopefully negotiate a release from the contract.

Trying to pursue this further could take months and your daughter will be more unhappy. Relationships will definitely sour as the other students will worry about the outcome , they may even have to move themselves or have a rent increase.

Rightly or wrongly they will not want to live with your daughter next year if this continues . To them it would seem your daughter was only unhappy after she was given the bad room . Would she have been so upset if one of them had it?

Best to move on , there are problems with the room but they were clear at viewing , it's a hard lesson.

I haven't read the full thread but I think you are right to pursue this the landlord needs to provide adequate rooms for all students living in the house. As pp said if it doesn't help your daughter then it may help future students and that can only be a good thing.

I have lived in some pretty hazardous houses as a student but none were windowless. One had a sink where you had to climb into the bath to use it and another where the heaters were condemned. Sorry actually I do remember staying in an attic room for the summer that was windowless but obviously no fumes from the kitchen.

1. Your daughter needs new friends. They are treating her badly.
2. Object to the HMO licence renewal, or see if one of the neighbours will.
3. Definitely pursue whether a glass door to a kitchen is legal.
4. Definitely pursue whether the level of ventilation is legal.

This is a recipe for depression.

I would move on from 'uncomfortable room' issues, not from fire safety issues.

BTW, re plants, an aspidistra could probably handle it. It's just a matter of getting the right kind of plant.