Maths / Physics Entry Requirements

[1234Littleham]

My daughter is doing four AS Levels at the moment at her sixth form comprehensive (Maths, Further Maths, Physics and one other).

Do universities count Further Maths as an A Level in their entry requirements?
So if she dropped the fourth subject would she be fine applying for Maths & Physics related degrees with FM, Maths and Physics A levels?

Further Maths and Maths will count as separate subjects for anything to do with maths, physics, engineering etc. But that's not a good reason for dropping from 4 to 3 any time before you have the offers (at which point optimising final revision on 3 may well be sensible). The top unis in STEM are awash with entries from kids doing 4 or even 5 and have to pick from a pool like that. The final offers may well be on just 3 (which tend to be what goes on the uni web sites), but those will be minimum standards for acceptance, and not remotely indicative of the typical standard of successful candidates. Go on to the complete university guide web site and count the UCAS points of average successful candidates. You need to lop off a bit for maybe a subject completed only to AS and maybe a grade 8 music, but even after doing a simple correction like that you will find several courses at top unis where you will not even be average even if you get good grades in 3 taken to A2. The trick is to make yourself look above average, and not aim low by only aiming for 3 from early on. This is all going to be perturbed by the new A level structures, but aiming high is always a good plan. I've said this a few times on Mumsnet and it usually gets greeted by loads of criticism based on anecdotes about hearing about offers on just 3. Ignore this and make yourself aware of the grade profile of successful applicants.

OK. Her fourth subject sucks up an inordinate amount of time but I completely understand what you are saying.

I will let her know that she is being compared to people with four A2's (which is not the norm in her sixth form).

Would be very interested in feedback on those offer holder days. Let me know if admissions staff say anything different.

Queen's, Belfast is also RG, and their Maths/Physics do not insist on Further Maths, albeit it is still obviously very helpful, even if only to AS level.

Also note, "Physics at Queen's ranked 3rd for research intensity in [latest]United Kingdom's Research Excellence Framework exercise"

To give you some idea of entrance requirements:

www.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofMathematicsandPhysics/StudyWithUs/UndergraduateOpportunities/Physics/

Our experience is not as roguedad suggests.

DS at Cambridge (Engineering) - in first year. Dropped his fourth subject after AS. Concentrated on Maths, FM and Physics. DS very pragmatic approach - the offers are only on 3 so why do more?

Offers are so high for STEM subjects with little room for manouever so his advise would be why potentially compromise that. Admit my initial thoughts were he should continue with 4 but in this case it hasn't impacted. He did achieve an A for his 4th AS and Cambridge do ask you to submit all UMS scores.

DS is now working but also playing hard, having a great time and maintaining a balance to life he kept throughout A levels. Worth considering how much additional pressure 4 subjects would bring?

Littleham - my DD2 has applied for engineering, 1 of her good friends for Physics and another for Computer Science. All are doing 3 A levels plus AS Further Maths. They wish they could have done the full FM but it was not offered at their school. They are doing FM at AS level with a tutor and self-study. They have all had offers from good universities - there does not seem to be any issue with only having 3 A levels but obviously doing FM would help with their degree.
DD1 is at university doing a Stem subject - again having done 3 A levels. Not a problem. She had offers from all 5 of her choices - 4 were RG and the other was Bath.
3 A levels is fine and normal but as much maths as possible will help!
It is more important that her grades are as high as possible. AAA is worth a lot more than ABBB!

X-post with Leedsmum!

Average entry points for engineering in Cambridge = 640. (See Complete University Guide.)

Points for A star at A2 = 140.

Even allowing for points obtained from AS/DoE/Music, most of the engineering entrants at Cambridge have more than 3 A2. Of course there are exceptions, particularly for students from schools with rather low polar scores, but these are not typical.

Similarly average entry points for maths at Cambridge, Oxbridge, Imperial are over 600, indicating most candidates have more than 3 A2.

As I wrote above, though, indeed the points drops off very rapidly as you go down the league tables. A student will automatically get offers from universities which are definitely top 10 for maths, physics and engineering if they meet the predicted grade requirements in 3 A2.

It is only the top 3/4/5/6 which are selecting amongst those who meet their published grade requirements.

It is more important that her grades are as high as possible. AAA is worth a lot more than ABBB!

Good point!

I am quite heartened by all the stories of people going to good universities for maths / science / engineering on three A2's. The top 3/4/5/6 would be great but she hasn't got her heart set on anywhere in particular yet. She will be taking Further Maths A2 come what may as she loves it.

I think you need to distinguish between the entry points some students may "have" and the requirements the Universities ask "for". Which Univeristies are asking for 4 A2s in their offers ?

It is also important to recognise that despite the incressing trend, not all universities will be flexible on slipped grades.

Engineering offer was AAA . They also specified which 2 subjects the A* needed to be in. Ie no room for manoeuver. It is more important to choose the right subjects (including FM if available) and of course there is for some the interview process.

disquisitiones - DS did not go to a school with a lower polar score. As with hellsbells99 all 5 offers received. Same for friends also studying STEM and it was the exception at their School to take 4 A2s.

ABBB is still excellent though.
But if she is aiming for the top universities then the higher the better

DS is studying four A2s - Maths, FM, Physics and a MFL - and has applied for either Maths on its own or Joint Honours with Maths. The offers have varied. All five have specified grades required for Maths and FM but with the exception of Imperial are happy for the third grade to be in either Physics or the MFL. Imperial specified Physics as the third A Level. Given that the results of some subjects can be unpredictable it can be useful to have a fourth A Level in case one (in this case Physics) goes pear-shaped.

Which Univeristies are asking for 4 A2s in their offers ?

It is quite common for Imperial maths, physics and engineering (particularly chemical).

Some Cambridge colleges ask for specific grades in 4 A2s for maths/nat sci and engineering.

disquisitiones - DS did not go to a school with a lower polar score. As with hellsbells99 all 5 offers received.

But this does not contradict anything I said. Only Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, Durham have, on average, students with 4 A2s for subjects like maths, physics and engineering. The remaining RG and top non RG like Bath happily offer and accept based on 3 A2.

My dd is taking the same approach as Leedsmum's ds in terms of work/life balance. She works hard and also does lots of extracurricular stuff. She wants to do engineering, is aiming for a 'top' university.

If she gets A*AA and ends up at Southampton (or wherever) I will be seriously impressed with that.

please don't let your DS set her heart on one university. its really important to get out and about to as many open days as you possibly can. my DC is in year 13 and wants to do masters maths. before looking she had a list of 2 or 3 unis she thought she wanted to go to. we looked at 10. she applied and has offers from ones that didn't even feature in her top 3.

the new grading system at GCSE is going to start to have effects on offers going forward as is the new a level so this is a bit of time of transition (in education - who would have thought it ???). please start going to the open days as early as you can and see as many places as possible.

Gearing up for Open Days but I don't think they are booking quite yet. Good idea to look at a range of universities.

she can order the prospectus now though and start looking through to get a feel of the places she might want to visit. also have a look at the studentroom website. very useful.

littleham so we went to the bath offer holder day yesterday. One of the questions asked by a student which was put to physics guy doing Q&A was 'What are the advantages of doing 4 A levels?' His response was pretty much on the basis that when it comes to near miss the 4th A level will be taken to account, thats if they have spare spaces to fill. How it will pan out this year is unknown as it's the first year they have asked for A*AA last year it was 3A. And they won't take B grades for definite . Hope this info helps.

Thanks Grannypucket. Really useful. A bit depressing about the B grades. I guess that maths will be fairly similar.

But Bath is aiming to be top 10, so will be more fussy than some of the other RG courses that you have mentioned (particularly in maths). That said, no RG level course should be taking B for maths/physics for a maths/physics/engineering course (except under special circumstances) because it is not a good indicator for success.

Dd doesn't know what to do now, since bath say they not taking B grade she thinks she can get 2A* in maths and physics but might end up with 2 B's in chemistry and biology as her mocks didn't go too well. She already got a A in EPQ. She is thinking of dropping biology and concentrate getting the A in chemistry . I don't think is a good idea as she has to tell ucas and the university, the uni can withdraw their offer. I'm banging my head against a wall let say .

Good luck to your dd Grannypucket. So difficult to know what to do & whether to plump for three or four A levels. Does she have a lower reserve choice?

I suppose my dd will have to have to look at applying to a couple of higher universities and some with lower requirements to act as a back up (depending on AS results of course).

Actually I think that's a very sensible thing granny. Presumably her offer is for three not four? She could email and ask if they'd think it was a problem?

I'm not sure that it is true that Oxbridge expect 4 A2s for entry to maths and physics.

KCL Maths school only provides Maths, Further Maths and Physics at A2, computing or economics for AS in the first year and an EPQ in the second year. Yet they have 11 oxbridge offers out of their 66ish students.

Big pile of prospectuses has arrived so she is mulling over the choices.