Second Year Accommodation - Joint & Several Contracts

[BlueStringPudding]

DD2 has found a house that she and her friends want to rent next year. There are 7 of them in total, and the house is 'perfect'. The problem is that it is a 'Joint and Several' contract, not just for the students but for the guarantors as well.

This means we're being asked to guarantee not only DD's rent but also her 6 other housemates - who she hasn't known very long. It seems that if one or more of DD's friends leaves the house and they don't find replacements, or indeed if someone just doesn't pay, that the rest of us will be liable for the rent, and the Landlord can, if they wish, just target one guarantor to pay the outstanding amount.

Apparently the other parents are happy with this, and the agent says this is normal for this city and that the terms are non-negotiable. DD1 in a nearby city is on an individual tenancy so we only had to be guarantor for her.

I'm not happy about this, but DD says that I'm being unreasonable and that they will lose the house and won't find another good one if we refuse to sign this contract.

The University Guild advice recommends guarantors only sign for their share, but the Agents I've looked at so far all seem to quote 'Joint and Several' so feeling a bit stuck.

Has anyone any experience with this? Do we just have to go for it and hope for the best, or can we hold out and trust that they will find another house with individual tenancies - it is still quite early, but there seems to be a lot of panic about the shortage of 'good' student houses..

BlueString DD just starting to look too, recently spoke to an agent in her Uni town. Was told no single tenancies, all 'joint and several'. But also told guarantors have separate agreements, so not responsible for their student.
I think DD and friends now waiting till Jan when SU letting a open.

I intend to ask for a a copy of the agents draft contract to go through in advance.

Important to see exactly what is being guaranteed. I strongly suspect it is NOT just the rent, but al the obligations of the tenancy agreement. So that would be any damages, cleaning, gardening left behind too.

Bloody autocorrect
ONLY responsible for their student

Its absolutely crucial to check that any deposit is under one of the Guarantee schemes. That way if landlord and tenant don't agree, then it effectively oes to arbitration. Its also worth checking there will be an incoming inventory and someone, maybe a parent, being there for this and ensuring everything is noted. (Some inventory people are very good, others inexperienced and don't note detail) Take photos of damage and email them to the agent immediately. Inventory clerk should take meter readings, if not take a photo yourself and email it to the agent. (If there is a water meter you may have to ask them to come out seperately.) If the landlord is tricky, check and you expect a deposit dispute, check that there will an outgoing inventory, though this is something tenants are often expected to pay. Check you have the right number of keys.

I tend to be generous on what is reasonable wear and tear. Others are not and may try to repaint or replace carpets at the cost of previous tenants. The simple thing is to keep any damage to a minimum, including things like ensuring there is a level of ventilation in the bathroom (the window slightly ajar, the door open when not in use, a decent bathroom mat and no water left on the floor. Lots of internet guidance. All bathrooms suffer with sharers.)

The main reason the deposit may be insufficient, other than wild parties or a dishonest landlord, is if any of the sharers pull the old student trick of not paying the last month's rent. Its only once happened to me, and then bizarrely by a hedge fund manager earning a high six figure salary. Simples. I reminded him that I would do everything by the book. Inventory, deposit scheme arbitration etc. Any judgement would be in my favour and if there were any monies, even very small ammounts, owed to me beyond the deposit, I would take him to the small claims court. He would be mad to have a judgement against him. He must have consulted his colleagues at work as the money appeared next day and he then fell over himself to be helpful.

A lot of professions will not tolerate even a hint of money/credit problems. If sharers are likely to be splitting up at the end it is worth making sure everyone is on the same page.

The problem with this is that it's our DC doing the looking and choosing. They are 19+ and while they may ask for advice the likelihood is they won't fuss about seeing the right paperwork.
This time last year DS was in a blind hurry to get his year 2 house. All second years have to live off campus and while there are some uni managed houses most go with private landlords. He was happy to leave others to look at houses and go with the one they chose. There was a huge deposit (£2300 IIRC) plus a booking fee of some kind.
The house has a basement kitchen / sitting room and six bedrooms. DS is perfectly happy there but it was filthy when they moved in. Needless to say none of the parents was around or involved at moving in time and they got nowhere with the landlord.
As a parent I would happily step in for my DC but can hardly do so for five strangers.

A warning about shared bills as well. Someone advised them to get a joint bank account for bill paying. I did over rule that one as there are all kinds of reasons why that is a bad idea (future credit ratings etc). It's not the cheapest but Glide or SplitTheBills are very, very easy to use and can save all kinds of hassle. In fact when I worked it out they were only a fraction more than DIY.

Needmoresleep, what relevance do your rather long posts have to the OP?

OP, no way would I act as guarantor for someone else's offspring. How much is the rent on a 7-bed place? It must be getting on for £700 a week. That is a lot of money to say you'll cover for a six month period which is effectively what you're signing up to. If landlords are doing this as standard in the area then someone needs to tell the students and their parents exactly what they're getting into , and then if enough of them refuse to do it (which they absolutely should) then perhaps the robbing bastards will stop.

Joint and several is bad enough in terms of the tenants themselves (as though anyone is responsible for the finances of another person - it's fucking crazy) but for guarantors it's an absolute no-no.

I am fine with Joint and Several for the students themselves, but would prefer just to be guarantor for DD, and this is what the Students' Guild recommends

Bluestring - I'm probably being a bit dim, but I'm not sure how this works. Surely if it's Joint and Several for the students themselves and one of them defaults making the others responsible for rent etc, then parents will inevitably end up footing the bill?

The problem with this is that it's our DC doing the looking and choosing. They are 19+ and while they may ask for advice the likelihood is they won't fuss about seeing the right paperwork

Secret - my sentiments exactly. My only consolation is that one of DS's prospective flatmates is doing law so I'm hoping she may take a more thorough approach!

I'm not sure students are that aware of filth. I can't remember being that bothered by the state of my 3rd year uni accommodation - a bungalow where the only source of heat was a coal fire and single bar electric fires. This was in Scotland. Mould in the bathroom, damp in the kitchen and horrible green carpet tiles. My room was the attic which was half full of the owner's junk and which I accessed via a pull down ladder. I loved it but I do have much higher standards now!

Cruikshank. Happy to bow out. Just thought that my experience as a landlord who has let to students as well as advising DS who is 2nd year and renting, I might have something useful to contribute. Not least I suggested that it might be useful to consider jojnt and several liability from a landlords perspective. In some towns and cities there is a real shortage of accommodation and landlords hold most of the cards.

But point taken and sorry if I offended anyone.

Needmoresleep - PLEASE don't bow out! I'm sure I'm not alone in being very keen to hear from people with relevant experience who can give concrete and knowledgeable advice rather than generalise or make assumptions based on limited experience.

If Joint and Several is the norm in Exeter and other places then we will just have to accept it and keep our fingers crossed - what alternative do we have? I can't really see my ds leading a rebellion against the private rental sector Cruikshank. Certainly not in time to change things for his second year!

I'm not talking about your son leading a rebellion. I'm talking about the uni accommodation service advising parents not to get into these type of contracts unless they can afford to lose £700 x 26 because that's what they are effectively being told to sign up to. If enough parents didn't do it, then the landlords would have to think again.

Like I say, even joint and severally liable between the students themselves is ridiculous - a person should not be made to be responsible for an unrelated person's liabilities.

I'm talking about the uni accommodation service advising parents not to get into these type of contracts unless they can afford to lose £700 x 26 because that's what they are effectively being told to sign up to. If enough parents didn't do it, then the landlords would have to think again

And in the meantime, where do these students live? It sounds as if Joint and Several agreements are very common.

Joint and several liability between tenants is common, yes (although imo it shouldn't be). Joint and several liability between guarantors is not and as such it sounds as though there are some landlords in Exeter who are trying to pull a fast one, so the uni accommodation service should be advising the parents of the students under their remit not to to along with it. Fair enough guarantee your own offspring. Not fair enough to guarantee the offspring of six other strangers as well. As for where the students should live, it's only December - presumably these students won't be taking on their new contracts until 10 months later than now.

But what is the difference between J&S liability between tenants and between guarantors? Doesn't it amount to the same thing? If my ds has liability for his housemates' rent, doesn't that effectively mean I do?

I meant where do students live next year if they say no to J&S agreements? And they can't wait 10 months to sign a contract! They need to sign them now/January to secure a property for next year.

You are correct re the joint and several liability passing up the chain, as it were, but what should happen is that the deed of guarantee parents sign specifies that they are only liable for the portion of rent monies owed or expenses incurred by the landlord in relation to their own child. If this is not the case, don't sign it! Unless you have a spare £20 k sitting around going begging (in which case, give it to me ...)

It's normal, and as a sometime student landlord (or landlord for students) it's a necessary protection, I can tell you, from hard experience.

Needmoresleep has very relevant expertise to offer on the subject of tenancies. I for one am grateful and will listen to any advice on a subject I know little about.
DS1 may be in his second year but he has 2 more years to go and DS2 will start uni next year so there will be a lot more of these renting issues to come. I know the thread is about J&S tenancies but surely the OP doesn't object to a little widening of discussion?

I don't really see the relevance of someone wittering on about bathroom windows and how rich their tenants are, but I guess if others are getting something out of it then fair enough. And the advice about one person being liable for each bill is completely suspect - there are organisations that will apportion liability just to avoid the kind of dispute that is very very likely to arise in such situations.

Bottom line with student renting is don't put your name to anything unless you can absolutely avoid it - things may seem all hunky-dory and everyone's getting on and the house is perfect etc, but the way that tenancies and liabilities work in the UK means that unless you are careful you can sign up to much much more than you should be responsible for or can afford to be responsible for.

Honestly Cruikshank, you are a bit off the pace with student rentals. It is fairly normal to have the bills in the name of a student. However, this student has to trust everyone else. Or students pay into a central account monthly . There is no way of paying each bill as an individual. Someone has to take responsibility. My DD paid her share, by bank transfer, to the responsible student when the bills appeared for payment. This worked for them and lots of others did the same. Each student took a different bill so electricity, WIFi and gas were shared out for billing purposes. The heating bills were apportioned according to the size of room and a slight adjustment to the rent too if one room is very small. All of this was agreed between them at the time they took the property. As long as it is fair, then there is usually no problem.

You are also all assuming your DCs have met up with the most dishonest students in the university! I bet their parents are thinking just the same thing regarding the trustworthiness of your DC!

Students are not best placed to challenge landlords. It is also common to pay rents from 1 July so 10 months time is fantasy world for many. It is also perfectly normal to not rent via the university accommodations office. They rarely have enough properties in the right areas.

I think the advice from Needmoreslerp is very relevant. No student wants to find themselves with bills that are unforeseen at the end of the rental period which were easy to avoid. My DD and her other renters paid the landlord £15 for cleaning at the end of the tenancy. This worked well and meant absent parents did not have to worry. They were never surcharged for anything else. DD2 in a hall of residence not run by the university was charged for little thing even when little of it was down to her. landlords are different. Therefore checking with existing tenants in the private sector is a very good idea. Tell your DCS to get copies of the safety checks! It is not beyond these young adults to do this! Also, please rest assured that your DCs will be fine! The vast majority are. Now when it comes down to who drank all the milk.........

It is fairly normal to have the bills in the name of a student.

It might be 'normal' (although I would dispute that - just because that's how you do things doesn't mean it's 'normal') but it's not necessary. Why saddle yourself with a personal liability when there are organisations that will spread it between the tenants? Like I say (and this is true for all contracts btw, not just student lets) never sign yourself up for something that you don't have to. It's nothing to do with whether or not people are dishonest; it's about protecting yourself from unnecessary risk.

And that does include insisting on an individual guarantor agreement. There is no way that anyone should be under an obligation to be legally liable for six or ten months worth of rent for seven people. Guaranteeing the rent for a single nominated person is perfectly acceptable, and there is a standard form for it, and all parents should insist on it being used.

No student wants to find themselves with bills that are unforeseen at the end of the rental period which were easy to avoid.

This is exactly what I am saying. If you use a company to spread liability for bills this won't happen. If you insist on individual guarantor agreements, this won't happen. I am amazed that you think it worth your daughter going to the trouble of paying £15 for effectively nothing, but won't secure yourselves against potential claims for much greater sums of money that you should never owe in the first place, and which you can prevent yourselves against being liable for.

OK I'm back.

As a landlord I guided by:

1. Whatever repuatable agent I use
2. Restrictions from teh mortgage company
3. The understanding that I would be on a hiding to nothing in any court if I had not taken reasonable precautions.

So if the agent suggests joint and several, and guarantors, I go along with it. To be honest if there are alternatives I would rent to

1. young professionals
2. students who can provide landlord references, ie third years and post graduates , who will also have some credit history.
3. International students who will pay six months in advance and a large deposit. (And this is not about how rich they are. Just the norm for students who will probably leave the country once they finish their degree, and who offer limited referencing and no guarantor.)

If you are asked to be a guarantor I would ask about the procedures should any of the tenant miss a rental payment. My approach (and it seems to work) is to alert the tenant when a payment is about four days late and suggest they contact their bank. I will also let the lead tenant know. At 10 days I would issue a formal warning, and then reread the contract with a view to ending the tenancy if the money is not paid. I would probably give the others a chance to have a new tenancy with a new person. It never come to that. Other tenants will quickly ensure that their co-tenant pays up. As a guarantor, my concern would be if the landlord/agent says nothing and allows arrear to run up. I would be tempted to write something formal saying you would expect to be informed, within a set period perhaps 10 days, of any arrears and if you are not informed you would not see yourself liable.

Other stuff.

1. As I said above, a clear inventory is crucial. Deposits should be protected (make sure they are) but can't be if there is no record of how the property was to start.

1. Meter readings at the start and end (and take photos), and a clear agreement on how they will be paid. Glide or SplitTheBills sound great. Otherwise one bill each sounds reasonable.

1. Safety. Seeing the Gas safety cert is a must. Test the fire alarm, which the landlord is legally required to provide. If the landlord does not provide a carbonmonoxide alarm, and they probably should, buy one as a moving in present. They can be as little as £30 and they are placed about a meter from the boiler. You could ask about PAT (electrical testing, as again a legal requirement for some forms of rented property.)

1. I would have thought it is worth an early discussion about end of tenancy stuff, including the need for the final month's rent to be paid, bills settled and the property cleaned.

1. And the bathroom stuff. Honestly the biggest damage from most tenancies is condensation. Hot rooms, drying clothes, several people taking showers, no ventilation and it soon gets minging. Yes a landlord can re-tile or repaint but if tenants don't exercise caution, there is no point till they are gone. And if they don't listen to a landlord's reasonable advice on ensuring ventilation, they could find themselves liable.

This will be the first major financial trasaction for most 19 year olds, other than student loans/university fees. Its a great learning experience, and if it goes well you get both a valuable landlord's reference and an enhanced credit rating, but it is also a responsibility.

No idea about the missing milk. Buy a cow?

Sorry by fire alarm I meant smoke alarm. It goes off with burnt toast so tenants often take the batteries out...obviously this is unwise.

Thanks Needmoresleep. I will file all that away in the hope that DS will take note .
I haven't been asked to be a guarantor and I can see the difficulty, but the fact is DC are going to live with these people for a year. I guess it may be naive but in daily life I just don't normally assume that everyone is an untrustworthy crook.

DD was at Exeter, though it was some time ago (2008-2011) so things might have changed.

In her first term she was told that she HAD to get accommodation sorted out by the end of November, or she'd never get anywhere decent, which led to her getting a house with 5 others who she'd known about 6 weeks. It was a nice house, in Union Road, which is within easy walking distance of town and her particular part of campus, but the mix of housemates wasn't ideal - they did manage to get to the end of the year on reasonably good terms, but DD had realised by November that she wouldn't be sharing with the same people next year. This house was run by a student housing company, and as far as I remember, we didn't have to sign a guarantee at all. It was more expensive, but most of the bills were covered in the rent (can't remember exactly which), so no problem about getting people to pay up.

By the time she came to sorting out the 3rd year, she knew the 3 girls she wanted to share with pretty well and they found a nice house in Edgerton Park Road, again a good distance from campus and town. They decided they would do better getting a non-company house and sorting out the bills themselves - I think it worked out about 10% cheaper overall.

This was a Joint and Several tenancy, but I just looked at the copy of the guarantee DH and I signed, and it specifically said we agreed to pay "DD's one-fourth share of the rent" and also her one-fourth share of reasonable expenses in case of damage etc. The agent they used was called Solo Property Services, in case you want to try them, but I don't know if they still exist. As far as I remember, they were fairly good as agents, they didn't have any problems with them.

£15 to avoid me doing a deep clean of a student flat is Money VERY well spent in my view!

I guess it may be naive but in daily life I just don't normally assume that everyone is an untrustworthy crook.

Jesus fucking wept. This is like banging my head against a brick wall. It's not about assuming everyone is an untrustworthy crook. It's about not signing a document, that you have no legal obligation to sign, that will make you liable for 10 months' worth of rent for 6 people that you don't know. Obviously that is a worst-case scenario and therefore might not happen. But equally obviously the world is not just some great big fucking onion, people fall out, people get into debt, people get chucked off courses, people piss their loan up the wall in the SU bar - and you want to let yourself be responsible for the ££thousands of financial fallout of those and any other scenarios that might happen between September of one year and June of the next just because you like to think that everyone is nice?

£15 to avoid me doing a deep clean of a student flat is Money VERY well spent in my view!

Yes, because all of the landlords who charge a cleaning fee actually employ cleaners, just as all of the letting agents who charge £150 in admin fees spend £150 on printing off a standard form contract. You're talking about £15 per person in a 7-bed let. That's, what £100 for effectively doing nothing to benefit the tenant other than some vague assurance that they won't get stiffed through the deposit scheme, when actually if the landlord had had to recoup the £100 through the deposit scheme they would have to have provided receipts and photos. It's money for old rope.