Second Year Accommodation - Joint & Several Contracts

[BlueStringPudding]

DD2 has found a house that she and her friends want to rent next year. There are 7 of them in total, and the house is 'perfect'. The problem is that it is a 'Joint and Several' contract, not just for the students but for the guarantors as well.

This means we're being asked to guarantee not only DD's rent but also her 6 other housemates - who she hasn't known very long. It seems that if one or more of DD's friends leaves the house and they don't find replacements, or indeed if someone just doesn't pay, that the rest of us will be liable for the rent, and the Landlord can, if they wish, just target one guarantor to pay the outstanding amount.

Apparently the other parents are happy with this, and the agent says this is normal for this city and that the terms are non-negotiable. DD1 in a nearby city is on an individual tenancy so we only had to be guarantor for her.

I'm not happy about this, but DD says that I'm being unreasonable and that they will lose the house and won't find another good one if we refuse to sign this contract.

The University Guild advice recommends guarantors only sign for their share, but the Agents I've looked at so far all seem to quote 'Joint and Several' so feeling a bit stuck.

Has anyone any experience with this? Do we just have to go for it and hope for the best, or can we hold out and trust that they will find another house with individual tenancies - it is still quite early, but there seems to be a lot of panic about the shortage of 'good' student houses..

[BlueStringPudding]

I thought it would be useful to provide an update of what happened in the end.. They found a lovely 7 bed house in a great location at a good price between the campus and the Centre. It was a Joint and Several contract for the students, but the Guarantor Deeds limited to just the rent for our own child.

Unfortunately the night before they were due to sign the contracts and pay deposits, one of their group broke the news that they had decided not to stay after all, and were dropping out. Sadly this meant this house was no longer an option, and the search was on instead for a 6 bedroom house.

They went to the university housing fair, which was a bit of a scrum apparently but signed up to see 3 houses, one of which - the most expensive naturally - is the one they decided they wanted. They checked about the individual Guarantors, and the Landlord said that was fine.

Contracts were emailed out, only to discover that the Guarantor Form was again Joint and Several. Some tense emails went back and forth, and one of DD's friends negotiated with the LL over the wording of the contract to limit the liability to an individual amount per student.

Agreement was reached, deposits have been paid, and just waiting for the revised form to sign and return.

So somewhat stressful, but I think she is all sorted now.. Thank you all for the advice, it really helped me stay focused and determined not to sign a Joint and Several Guarantor Form..

[BlueStringPudding]

Just catching up on all of the responses, and thank you - it is all very useful information. DD1's experience has been pretty good - she has a single contract, and we guaranteed just her. The Agents are good - replaced the microwave within 24 hours when it broke.

When she moved in we took loads of photos of the interior of the house, particularly showing any marks etc, and checked them against the inventory. She has got a bit of an issue with mould, but has a dehumidifier and trying to open the windows as much as possible to ventilate the room.

Hoping DD2 and her friends find somewhere nice in January. It sounds like there are quite a lot of private landlords that will advertise on the universities' accommodation pages, so fingers crossed..

[Millymollymama]

Neither do I. If a student moves in to a newly decorated flat with clean appliances and showers and everything in working order it is perfectly reasonable to pay a cleaning fee on exit so the oven and hob etc are as clean as when they moved in. I do not know any students who are charged for cleaning when they go into a property. Why do you think landlords charge new tenants a cleaning fee Cruikshank? Never heard of that.

I think cruikshank thinks all landlords are unscrupulous rogues. Lots of landlords and letting agents give a point of contact for the students. DD2 had a maintenance man in Y2 who lived in one of the flats - 4 large houses in a row with 3 flats in each. They had communal gardens, a barbecue, bike rack and super new bathrooms and kitchen. I think it is reasonable for students to look after property and deal with issues themselves unless the landlord/ agent is totally unreasonable. Many will not want contact from parents and we were totally satisfied the landlord and agents dealt with money appropriately. I let out a couple of houses so I do know what students should expect. Also if carpets and settees were ruined and the students trashed the flat, the deposit would barely cover this.

When students move to final year you will find that some properties are advertised for this type of student and maybe post-grad and young professionals too. The quality of property for this category can be better. I think that as long as the student is happy that the accommodation has been well maintained, that defects are put right promptly and has the safety checks done and fire regulations are adhered to, then they will be happy living in that property. The landlord in DDs property actually came round to meet the students and kept a reasonable eye on his properties, but not in an intrusive way. He just checked everyone was happy and that work had been completed.

[Brioche201]

If you've signed a deed of guarantor, then you've got a contract with a landlord
It iis legally binding but it is not a contract.

[Needmoresleep]

Error......it depends what the original inventory says. If it says it was professionally cleaned then the property needs to be cleaned to a professional standard on exit. Good domestic clean and ditto. And pigsty... no need to clean at all.

Which is why it is so important to read the inventory carefully and note any discrepancies at the outset.

The costs MMM quotes sound very reasonable. I don't get cruikshank's issue.

[cruikshank]

^
I cannot see why anyone would be worried or suspicious about £15 for a deep clean!^

Because very likely the landlord will be charging the exiting tenants this so-called 'fee' and then charging the new tenants the same. So that's £200 for literally fuck all. And if the landlord had had to go through the deposit scheme to recoup money for cleaning, they very likely wouldn't have got it. They know that, so they stiff the tenants with the implied threat that deposit monies will be forfeited if the tenants don't go along with it.

[cruikshank]

The landlord has a contract with the student, not the parent.

If you've signed a deed of guarantor, then you've got a contract with a landlord.

I am actually quite amazed that a grown adult would enter into such an agreement without realising the implications of it.

[Millymollymama]

I honestly think most of our DC will not share flats with insolvent flaky students who drink to oblivion and are just about to get chucked off the course. I am pleased to say my DC were more discerning than that and I bet yours are too. We all know there are a few students who are disastrous but my DD only knew one student on her course who left after year 1 because she wanted to change courses. Most young people really do suss out decent flat mates who come from backgrounds like theirs and who have every intention of being honest and decent. It is impossible for parents to sort out every detail and can only advise. The landlord has a contract with the student, not the parent.

I cannot see why anyone would be worried or suspicious about £15 for a deep clean! It just meant 6 students and their parents did not have to worry about it and everyone just left their rooms tidy and the last one out cleared out the fridge!

[Needmoresleep]

I agree. I've been caught too often by tearful tenants who did not realised how long it would take to both move out and clean a property. I usually recommend that they use a firm of cleaners trusted by me, and the sensible ones agree. They pay the cleaner on the basis of the quote, I sign the deposit release when I get the keys back and everyone is happy. Deep cleans are hard work and really worth the money. Be careful however about firms who advertise on the internet. Very low quotes, but many are useless. The Hedgie mentioned up thread claimed he could get a full clean including carpet for about a third of my cleaners quote. I got him to ask the firm how many hours this was based on. If they had done the job as promised it was clear that they would have been paying their staff well below minimum wage. Not a problem to him, it was to me.

And for cruikshank. I had a tenant in a house share of recent graduates whose mum used to come down every month to clean the house. Unfortunately the girl's employer transferred her out of London. With none of the remaining sharers cleaning, the house quickly became a tip. I assume the mum was not a MNetter.

[SecretSquirr3ls]

cruikshank No need for that. I don't know whether you have DC in HE but this topic is normally very supportive and pleasant and not sweary like the rest of MN
I think we all know the students will get stung one way or another, but as I said before they are adults and as a parent it is impossible to control every decision they make, nor would I want to.

I agree MillyMolly £15 v lost deposit = no brainer. Chances are your DC will be away somewhere when the tenancy ends and have little control over how the other flat mates leave it.

[cruikshank]

£15 to avoid me doing a deep clean of a student flat is Money VERY well spent in my view!

Yes, because all of the landlords who charge a cleaning fee actually employ cleaners, just as all of the letting agents who charge £150 in admin fees spend £150 on printing off a standard form contract. You're talking about £15 per person in a 7-bed let. That's, what £100 for effectively doing nothing to benefit the tenant other than some vague assurance that they won't get stiffed through the deposit scheme, when actually if the landlord had had to recoup the £100 through the deposit scheme they would have to have provided receipts and photos. It's money for old rope.

[cruikshank]

I guess it may be naive but in daily life I just don't normally assume that everyone is an untrustworthy crook.

Jesus fucking wept. This is like banging my head against a brick wall. It's not about assuming everyone is an untrustworthy crook. It's about not signing a document, that you have no legal obligation to sign, that will make you liable for 10 months' worth of rent for 6 people that you don't know. Obviously that is a worst-case scenario and therefore might not happen. But equally obviously the world is not just some great big fucking onion, people fall out, people get into debt, people get chucked off courses, people piss their loan up the wall in the SU bar - and you want to let yourself be responsible for the ££thousands of financial fallout of those and any other scenarios that might happen between September of one year and June of the next just because you like to think that everyone is nice?

[Millymollymama]

£15 to avoid me doing a deep clean of a student flat is Money VERY well spent in my view!

[RustyBear]

DD was at Exeter, though it was some time ago (2008-2011) so things might have changed.

In her first term she was told that she HAD to get accommodation sorted out by the end of November, or she'd never get anywhere decent, which led to her getting a house with 5 others who she'd known about 6 weeks. It was a nice house, in Union Road, which is within easy walking distance of town and her particular part of campus, but the mix of housemates wasn't ideal - they did manage to get to the end of the year on reasonably good terms, but DD had realised by November that she wouldn't be sharing with the same people next year. This house was run by a student housing company, and as far as I remember, we didn't have to sign a guarantee at all. It was more expensive, but most of the bills were covered in the rent (can't remember exactly which), so no problem about getting people to pay up.

By the time she came to sorting out the 3rd year, she knew the 3 girls she wanted to share with pretty well and they found a nice house in Edgerton Park Road, again a good distance from campus and town. They decided they would do better getting a non-company house and sorting out the bills themselves - I think it worked out about 10% cheaper overall.

This was a Joint and Several tenancy, but I just looked at the copy of the guarantee DH and I signed, and it specifically said we agreed to pay "DD's one-fourth share of the rent" and also her one-fourth share of reasonable expenses in case of damage etc. The agent they used was called Solo Property Services, in case you want to try them, but I don't know if they still exist. As far as I remember, they were fairly good as agents, they didn't have any problems with them.

[SecretSquirr3ls]

Thanks Needmoresleep. I will file all that away in the hope that DS will take note .
I haven't been asked to be a guarantor and I can see the difficulty, but the fact is DC are going to live with these people for a year. I guess it may be naive but in daily life I just don't normally assume that everyone is an untrustworthy crook.

[Needmoresleep]

Sorry by fire alarm I meant smoke alarm. It goes off with burnt toast so tenants often take the batteries out...obviously this is unwise.

[Needmoresleep]

OK I'm back.

As a landlord I guided by:

1. Whatever repuatable agent I use
   
2. Restrictions from teh mortgage company
   
3. The understanding that I would be on a hiding to nothing in any court if I had not taken reasonable precautions.
   

So if the agent suggests joint and several, and guarantors, I go along with it. To be honest if there are alternatives I would rent to

1. young professionals
   
2. students who can provide landlord references, ie third years and post graduates , who will also have some credit history.
   
3. International students who will pay six months in advance and a large deposit. (And this is not about how rich they are. Just the norm for students who will probably leave the country once they finish their degree, and who offer limited referencing and no guarantor.)
   

If you are asked to be a guarantor I would ask about the procedures should any of the tenant miss a rental payment. My approach (and it seems to work) is to alert the tenant when a payment is about four days late and suggest they contact their bank. I will also let the lead tenant know. At 10 days I would issue a formal warning, and then reread the contract with a view to ending the tenancy if the money is not paid. I would probably give the others a chance to have a new tenancy with a new person. It never come to that. Other tenants will quickly ensure that their co-tenant pays up. As a guarantor, my concern would be if the landlord/agent says nothing and allows arrear to run up. I would be tempted to write something formal saying you would expect to be informed, within a set period perhaps 10 days, of any arrears and if you are not informed you would not see yourself liable.

Other stuff.

1. As I said above, a clear inventory is crucial. Deposits should be protected (make sure they are) but can't be if there is no record of how the property was to start.
   

1. Meter readings at the start and end (and take photos), and a clear agreement on how they will be paid. Glide or SplitTheBills sound great. Otherwise one bill each sounds reasonable.
   

1. Safety. Seeing the Gas safety cert is a must. Test the fire alarm, which the landlord is legally required to provide. If the landlord does not provide a carbonmonoxide alarm, and they probably should, buy one as a moving in present. They can be as little as £30 and they are placed about a meter from the boiler. You could ask about PAT (electrical testing, as again a legal requirement for some forms of rented property.)
   

1. I would have thought it is worth an early discussion about end of tenancy stuff, including the need for the final month's rent to be paid, bills settled and the property cleaned.
   

1. And the bathroom stuff. Honestly the biggest damage from most tenancies is condensation. Hot rooms, drying clothes, several people taking showers, no ventilation and it soon gets minging. Yes a landlord can re-tile or repaint but if tenants don't exercise caution, there is no point till they are gone. And if they don't listen to a landlord's reasonable advice on ensuring ventilation, they could find themselves liable.
   

This will be the first major financial trasaction for most 19 year olds, other than student loans/university fees. Its a great learning experience, and if it goes well you get both a valuable landlord's reference and an enhanced credit rating, but it is also a responsibility.

No idea about the missing milk. Buy a cow?

[cruikshank]

It is fairly normal to have the bills in the name of a student.

It might be 'normal' (although I would dispute that - just because that's how you do things doesn't mean it's 'normal') but it's not necessary. Why saddle yourself with a personal liability when there are organisations that will spread it between the tenants? Like I say (and this is true for all contracts btw, not just student lets) never sign yourself up for something that you don't have to. It's nothing to do with whether or not people are dishonest; it's about protecting yourself from unnecessary risk.

And that does include insisting on an individual guarantor agreement. There is no way that anyone should be under an obligation to be legally liable for six or ten months worth of rent for seven people. Guaranteeing the rent for a single nominated person is perfectly acceptable, and there is a standard form for it, and all parents should insist on it being used.

No student wants to find themselves with bills that are unforeseen at the end of the rental period which were easy to avoid.

This is exactly what I am saying. If you use a company to spread liability for bills this won't happen. If you insist on individual guarantor agreements, this won't happen. I am amazed that you think it worth your daughter going to the trouble of paying £15 for effectively nothing, but won't secure yourselves against potential claims for much greater sums of money that you should never owe in the first place, and which you can prevent yourselves against being liable for.

[Millymollymama]

Honestly Cruikshank, you are a bit off the pace with student rentals. It is fairly normal to have the bills in the name of a student. However, this student has to trust everyone else. Or students pay into a central account monthly . There is no way of paying each bill as an individual. Someone has to take responsibility. My DD paid her share, by bank transfer, to the responsible student when the bills appeared for payment. This worked for them and lots of others did the same. Each student took a different bill so electricity, WIFi and gas were shared out for billing purposes. The heating bills were apportioned according to the size of room and a slight adjustment to the rent too if one room is very small. All of this was agreed between them at the time they took the property. As long as it is fair, then there is usually no problem.

You are also all assuming your DCs have met up with the most dishonest students in the university! I bet their parents are thinking just the same thing regarding the trustworthiness of your DC!

Students are not best placed to challenge landlords. It is also common to pay rents from 1 July so 10 months time is fantasy world for many. It is also perfectly normal to not rent via the university accommodations office. They rarely have enough properties in the right areas.

I think the advice from Needmoreslerp is very relevant. No student wants to find themselves with bills that are unforeseen at the end of the rental period which were easy to avoid. My DD and her other renters paid the landlord £15 for cleaning at the end of the tenancy. This worked well and meant absent parents did not have to worry. They were never surcharged for anything else. DD2 in a hall of residence not run by the university was charged for little thing even when little of it was down to her. landlords are different. Therefore checking with existing tenants in the private sector is a very good idea. Tell your DCS to get copies of the safety checks! It is not beyond these young adults to do this! Also, please rest assured that your DCs will be fine! The vast majority are. Now when it comes down to who drank all the milk.........

[cruikshank]

I don't really see the relevance of someone wittering on about bathroom windows and how rich their tenants are, but I guess if others are getting something out of it then fair enough. And the advice about one person being liable for each bill is completely suspect - there are organisations that will apportion liability just to avoid the kind of dispute that is very very likely to arise in such situations.

Bottom line with student renting is don't put your name to anything unless you can absolutely avoid it - things may seem all hunky-dory and everyone's getting on and the house is perfect etc, but the way that tenancies and liabilities work in the UK means that unless you are careful you can sign up to much much more than you should be responsible for or can afford to be responsible for.

[SecretSquirr3ls]

Needmoresleep has very relevant expertise to offer on the subject of tenancies. I for one am grateful and will listen to any advice on a subject I know little about.
DS1 may be in his second year but he has 2 more years to go and DS2 will start uni next year so there will be a lot more of these renting issues to come. I know the thread is about J&S tenancies but surely the OP doesn't object to a little widening of discussion?

[MultishirkingAgain]

It's normal, and as a sometime student landlord (or landlord for students) it's a necessary protection, I can tell you, from hard experience.

[cruikshank]

You are correct re the joint and several liability passing up the chain, as it were, but what should happen is that the deed of guarantee parents sign specifies that they are only liable for the portion of rent monies owed or expenses incurred by the landlord in relation to their own child. If this is not the case, don't sign it! Unless you have a spare £20 k sitting around going begging (in which case, give it to me ...)

[stonecircle]

But what is the difference between J&S liability between tenants and between guarantors? Doesn't it amount to the same thing? If my ds has liability for his housemates' rent, doesn't that effectively mean I do?

I meant where do students live next year if they say no to J&S agreements? And they can't wait 10 months to sign a contract! They need to sign them now/January to secure a property for next year.

[cruikshank]

Joint and several liability between tenants is common, yes (although imo it shouldn't be). Joint and several liability between guarantors is not and as such it sounds as though there are some landlords in Exeter who are trying to pull a fast one, so the uni accommodation service should be advising the parents of the students under their remit not to to along with it. Fair enough guarantee your own offspring. Not fair enough to guarantee the offspring of six other strangers as well. As for where the students should live, it's only December - presumably these students won't be taking on their new contracts until 10 months later than now.