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Original poster

Am I right to discourage dd1 from Cambridge application (NatSci)?

153 replies

roundandroundthehouses · 27/11/2015 15:11

Dd1 is currently Lower 6th and, for a long time, has intended to apply for NatSci at Cambridge. However, I'm concerned that she'd be wasting an application, due to her grades at GCSE and feedback from the current year's applicants.

She is doing AS Physics, Chemistry, Maths and English Lit, whilst following the Further Maths course at home as her school doesn't offer it. Physics is by far her best subject, but her GCSE result doesn't reflect this.

The offers and interview invitations have now started coming in for pupils in the year above. Of the two pupils who applied for Cambridge NatSci, neither was offered an interview. One of them was given feedback that this was because his academic profile was not strong enough.

This chap had 4 As at AS level, so it must be his GCSEs that were the issue. He has 7 As and 6 As. Dd1 has 6 As and 4 As. Two of the As are in Physics and Chemistry. Although both were high As, and unexpectedly 'low' given her previous performances (normally in the top three in her year), those are the grades that she got.

To me, that makes her situation clear, but dd1 is determined to apply anyway. Both dh and I went to Cambridge so we know the form - however, neither of us went for NatSci, which is (one of) the most competitive for applicants.

I'm torn between not wanting to shatter her dreams and advising her, realistically, that she would probably be wasting one of her five applications. Can anyone suggest a middle ground?

OP posts:
disquisitiones · 28/11/2015 11:38

Won't the best mathematicians be really really good at maths, but less good at arts and languages, and outstrip him in the end?

No. The best mathematicians are not necessarily spiky - google Tim Gowers, for example.

I am a mathematician who has 6 A levels which include an MFL and latin (13 top grades at GCSEs across a wide range of subjects). I have side interests in art, sport, music etc. I am not atypical.

disquisitiones · 28/11/2015 11:44

He did the senior kangaroo yesterday, not the Olympiad, and I just wonder is that good enough?

Many successful applicants to Cambridge from state schools have no experience at all of kangaroos or Olympiads.

The common factor amongst successful applicants for maths would be UMS of 95+ and usually nearer to 100 in maths and FM. If a student has scores in that range and they want to study maths then it is worth applying.

For Molio's question: if you look at a university which is top 10-15 for maths, but not top five, then the average entrant would have an A in maths and As in two other subjects. The average student would not usually have A in FM and indeed up to half of students wouldn't have FM A2 at all. A student who has the required grades and works would get at least a 2:i. Maths is not as hard as people perceive it: however, some students find it hard to learn to study, as they are so used to getting through maths with no effort at all.

ProfGrammaticus · 28/11/2015 11:44

Thank you. I'm sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intention to be discourteous.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 28/11/2015 12:22

My dh is an all-rounder too. This is great for maths because there are lots of research opportunities across the disciplines where a mathematical approach can bring something new to biology, or history, or all kinds of things really. As for the languages, anyone that goes as far as postgraduate is going to want to go to conferences abroad and anyone wanting to make a career of it is going to increase their chances of getting a job if they are willing to work abroad.

Op - the women's colleges can be very nurturing ime. Not all Oxbridge colleges are caring - some are pretty brutal - but if you find the right place it can be a very good environment for students who need extra support.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 28/11/2015 12:38

Ok - discount my "work like a dog" suggestion!

What I really meant was "work like a dog for a 16 year old" anyway. By this I meant that a lot of people me see L6 as a bit of a doss year. All about parties and snoggin and "how short a skirt can I get away with?" It was great! But that was before AS levels.

Molio · 28/11/2015 12:54

Thanks disquisitiones. Op sorry to join in the hijack. 100% ums then for a top 15 - no pressure! What year do they take the senior challenge in because I thought that was Y11 Confused? (only one of my other DC took maths and only to AS, so not really up to speed).

Molio · 28/11/2015 12:56

But Countess how would you go about telling ahead of time which colleges will be better at pastoral care? Proper question.

ProfGrammaticus · 28/11/2015 13:08

"The Senior Challenge is aimed at all 16-19 year olds studying mathematics i.e. year 13 and below in England and Wales, year 14 and below in Northern Ireland and S6 and below in Scotland. "

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 28/11/2015 13:12

Hmm, you'd have to ask people with recent experience, I think, as things can change. I wouldn't have thought you could tell from the official literature. There used to be an 'alternative prospectus' which the students wrote which was pretty good at capturing the spirit of each college. I don't know if it still exists but I would think any current student would have some idea about a range of colleges as well as their own.

Trills · 28/11/2015 13:27

a lot of people me see L6 as a bit of a doss year. All about parties and snoggin and "how short a skirt can I get away with?" It was great! But that was before AS levels.

The first year of kids to do AS levels started them in 2000, so people taking them now will have barely been alive at a time when lower 6th was a "doss year".

Does that make you feel old? :o

ProfGrammaticus · 28/11/2015 13:45

Yes! Thanks a lot!

disquisitiones · 28/11/2015 13:54

100% ums then for a top 15 - no pressure!

But you don't need 100% for an A? And remember that getting an A in maths is easier, or at least more predictable, than getting an A* in humanities, particularly when you are doing FM as well.

BTW all but the top 5-6 maths courses pick up extra students in clearing at the moment (relatively undersubscribed subject) so if a student drops to AAA or even AAB with FM they would still get in. And most of these courses would also accept points equivalents e.g. AAB or even AAC/AAC provided the C was not in a directly relevant subject. Options such as maths with languages or maths with economics would also tend to give out slightly lower offers, AAA or even AAB rather than AAA.

As a rule of thumb people say that it's desirable to have at least an A, preferably an A, in maths GCSE to do FM A level. Similarly if you aren't getting a solid A in maths A level you should be cautious about doing maths at any top 50 university (even if they let you in, which most won't). So asking for an A for the top 15 or so courses is not that surprising or indeed that scary.

ProfGrammaticus · 28/11/2015 14:05

OMG I've just realised that next year we will get office juniors/apprentices with dates of birth that start with a 2 Shock

I am so old!!

BeeePeee · 28/11/2015 14:14

I applied to Oxford having not got straight As for my gcses. I don't remember if my parents had an opinion on whether I should apply or not. It wouldn't have mattered what they thought as it was my decision. I got an interview but I didn't get an offer. I sing regret trying, I gave it my best shot.

AtiaoftheJulii · 28/11/2015 14:35

What year do they take the senior challenge in because I thought that was Y11?

Molio - Junior is aimed at y7 and y8, Intermediate at y9, y10 and y11 (and those three years have different Olympiads), and Senior is aimed at 6th form (and then after that you either have the Kangaroo or the BMO1 and about 100 people carry on to the BMO2). You don't really need any A level maths for the Senior Challenge though.

AtiaoftheJulii · 28/11/2015 14:43

Prof I think spiky profile is a reasonably accurate phrase - it sounded like you were saying he wouldn't do so well because he isn't on the autistic spectrum, which sounded a bit odd!

I think it's perfectly possible for a bright/hard-working (proportions may vary ;) ) kid to get all A* at GCSE, without it meaning a great deal for their future aptitude for any particular area. But reading your glowing description of your son does make me wonder why he wants to do a Maths degree, lol! What A levels is he doing?

asilverraindrop · 28/11/2015 16:56

My DD is applying for Natural Sciences this year. I thought it might help you to know that offers for all NS courses except Cambridge are A*AA, and that there are a lot of very good courses out there, so if she does apply to Cambridge and doesn't get in, it's very likely she will have other options she is happy with. My DD has an interview next week. While her PS does have some extracurricular stuff, all it says in terms of extra science stuff is reading a few books and going to a lecture or two. She certainly hasn't written any papers! HTH.

ProfGrammaticus · 28/11/2015 17:47

Well yes, me too!

He's doing maths, further maths, physics and chemistry though. So it does fit in that way.

talkinnpeace · 28/11/2015 18:29

My DD decided not to apply.
There were many issues - her grades being borderline for them among them.
But the utter killer was that she did not like the place.

If your DD likes the place and has the grades she'd be mad not to IMHO

Sadik · 28/11/2015 19:02

"reading your glowing description of your son does make me wonder why he wants to do a Maths degree"

At least one of my friends says he went for maths because of the lower workload compared to Natsci . . .

Many of my best friends were mathematicians Grin - they now do a wide range of very interesting jobs. More a question of why would you not want to if it's your sort of thing.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 28/11/2015 19:06

Does that make you feel old? grin

Errrr Yes!!!

Seriously?!?!?! There have been ASes for 15 years. Wow. Doesn't time fly. That means I only just missed them. (Looks back at parties and snogging year with extra fondness.)

So are kids expected to work full throttle from year 11 to U6 now? Or is there a slight easing up for L6?

For someone like me (an obsessive) I think that would have made me ill. I did work myself to death in U6 making sure I got my Cambridge grades. I remember my parents being quite concerned. But I'd had a nice year in L6 so it was worth it.

AtiaoftheJulii · 28/11/2015 19:08

Good solid subjects Prof (i.e. what I did Grin ) - would he be interested in Maths & Philosophy (not at Cambridge obvs) or PPE or something like that? Lots of maths still but a chance to show off his more articulate side too?

I don't think he'd be at a disadvantage for getting a place, although as I said, the whole STEP thing worries me about Cambridge mathsy courses (which I know I am being ridiculous about - my son is 15! - sometimes I despair of myself for being so bloody mumsnetty), but if you're thinking further ahead and that the competition for e.g. a first might be tougher, well I guess that could well be true. Or it might not be - degree level maths can be quite different from A level. (Where's that crystal ball???)

AtiaoftheJulii · 28/11/2015 19:11

Mum they're getting rid of AS's again.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 28/11/2015 19:22

disquisitones - does experience in bmo 1/2 and further on help much with entry?

You can take smc younger than 6th form.

disquisitiones · 29/11/2015 09:08

The STEP system will almost certainly change in the coming years: with no AS scores available a pretest system is likely to be introduced.