Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Original poster

Am I right to discourage dd1 from Cambridge application (NatSci)?

153 replies

roundandroundthehouses · 27/11/2015 15:11

Dd1 is currently Lower 6th and, for a long time, has intended to apply for NatSci at Cambridge. However, I'm concerned that she'd be wasting an application, due to her grades at GCSE and feedback from the current year's applicants.

She is doing AS Physics, Chemistry, Maths and English Lit, whilst following the Further Maths course at home as her school doesn't offer it. Physics is by far her best subject, but her GCSE result doesn't reflect this.

The offers and interview invitations have now started coming in for pupils in the year above. Of the two pupils who applied for Cambridge NatSci, neither was offered an interview. One of them was given feedback that this was because his academic profile was not strong enough.

This chap had 4 As at AS level, so it must be his GCSEs that were the issue. He has 7 As and 6 As. Dd1 has 6 As and 4 As. Two of the As are in Physics and Chemistry. Although both were high As, and unexpectedly 'low' given her previous performances (normally in the top three in her year), those are the grades that she got.

To me, that makes her situation clear, but dd1 is determined to apply anyway. Both dh and I went to Cambridge so we know the form - however, neither of us went for NatSci, which is (one of) the most competitive for applicants.

I'm torn between not wanting to shatter her dreams and advising her, realistically, that she would probably be wasting one of her five applications. Can anyone suggest a middle ground?

OP posts:
Ifyoubuildit · 27/11/2015 17:08

I always regret not applying, you should let her apply.

Figmentofmyimagination · 27/11/2015 18:05

Has she looked at any of the futurelearn courses? Good way of discovering more and enhancing her ps.

Figmentofmyimagination · 27/11/2015 18:06

Has she looked at any of the futurelearn courses? Good way of finding out more as well as enhancing her ps.

Figmentofmyimagination · 27/11/2015 18:09

My phone crashed - double posting eek - here is the link. www.futurelearn.com

itsmeohlord · 27/11/2015 18:10

Will she cope with the stress of being at Cambridge, away from home, etc given her ASD and anxiety......

Decorhate · 27/11/2015 18:22

As others have said, it's very high UMS marks at AS that Cambridge look for (for now at least) - so it will be easier to make an estimate of her chances after she gets her AS results.

Unless she is miles away from what they want, I agree it's always worth giving it a go, especially if she will regret not trying later in life.

disquisitiones · 27/11/2015 18:25

MOOCs make absolutely no difference to university entrance for sciences. MOOCs in PS would not make up for an academically weaker profile in terms of GCSE/AS grades.

The candidate who was rejected would most likely have been rejected for not having high enough UMS at AS level: an average of 90+ across three sciences would be the norm for those who get offers.

Unless the OPs DD gets high UMS at AS she isn't going to be a strong candidate - it would be very unusual for a Nat Sci to not have A stars in maths and all sciences at GCSEs - but it's just one space on the UCAS form, so not much to lose. (Unless she gets her heart set on it and is extremely disappointed if she gets rejected.) With solid A2 predictions she could expect offers from all but the top half dozen universities so using one or two slots for aspirational applications wouldn't do any harm.

disquisitiones · 27/11/2015 18:26

How they will select once the applicants have no AS exams I don't know.

Subjects which rely heavily on AS UMS scores to select for interview will introduce pretests.

Original poster
roundandroundthehouses · 27/11/2015 18:53

itsmeohlord - that's one of the reasons why, if I ended up discouraging her, I would have to tread carefully. She knows that I already have concerns about her coping if she goes away from home (there'd be sea in between) rather than the uni that's only an hour away from here by train. Although, IIRC, there would be many people like her on a NatSci course.

She was 2 UMS away from an A* in Physics at GCSE, so we'll see how she goes at AS and probably take it from there. Thank you for all advice! I will get her to check out Futurelearn as well, if she hasn't seen it.

OP posts:
bigbluebus · 27/11/2015 19:29

round I know nothing about Cambridge applications but just wanted to say that my DS, who also has ASD, went off to a Uni with sea in between us and him in September. I will admit that part of me hoped that he would go to his 2nd choice Uni which was only 2 hours away by road. He got into his 1st choice and I really thought he would be ringing up after week 1 begging us to go and get him and bring him home. We have just been to visit him for the 1st time (he's been gone for 8 weeks) and he is really enjoying Uni life. He has gone from being the boy who spent most of the time he wasn't at college sitting at home in his room to someone who has made a group of friends whom he has been out for lunch with and out clubbing on a number of occasions (previously would have described clubbing as hell on Earth). His room was a tip ( he did tidy up in our honour, so goodness knows what it was like before) but he was well turned out and actually looked healthier than I thought he would. He tells us he is up to date with his work, he has a mentor with whom he meets twice a week and seems generally happy. His next hurdle is getting to the airport on his own and finding his way around an airport he is not familiar with by himself, so he can come home for Christmas. Fortunately as we have just flown that route we will be able to give exact instructions.

MY DS was determined to go to this Uni and I think that has meant he wanted to prove he could manage independently. It is still early days and could all go pear shaped yet but he has amazed me with what he has achieved so far.

ProfGrammaticus · 27/11/2015 19:47

"Although, IIRC, there would be many people like her on a NatSci course."

What were/ are the people doing maths like? DS1 has 11A*s and has got through to the second round of the UKMT maths challenges more than once, but never the third. He does maths for fun and is teaching himself ahead of the further maths A level syllabus. He wants to do a maths degree and will probably apply to Cambridge.

But whilst clearly very good at maths, he isn't what I would describe as gifted IYSWIM. He's very good at languages too, articulate, goes to parties, has good friends who are girls. I fear he won't fit in, or excel, with the ones who have a spikier profile of abilities. To put it crudely, I worry that he's too normal, I think.

HMF1 · 27/11/2015 19:54

My oldest DS applied for Nat Sci at St John's last year, he didn't get an offer from them or the pool. He did however relish the experience of going there for the interview & he got good feedback from the interviewers including a if you still want to do research when you graduate please get in touch.He applied from a Scottish state secondary who gave no advice as they don't have much knowledge of the interview system. He is now doing a Mphys at Edinburgh & really enjoying it.
All I would say is if you think she would be robust enough to cope with any possible rejection let her do it, it's always worth encouraging aspiration.

purpledasies · 27/11/2015 19:56

What's she got to lose by applying? She gets 4 other choices, so has plenty back up if she doesn't get in. I think her grades sound like she'd have a good chance.

Also - it's her choice, but if you discourage her you'd sound like you don't believe in her, which isn't necessary given that she's getting grades that are the same as some kids get who go to Oxbridge.

She should put subject-related stuff on her personal statement to show a passion for her subject. Not hobbies and interests (or not much). That may be where the other candidates at her school fell down, rather than GCSE grades.

disquisitiones · 27/11/2015 19:57

He's very good at languages too, articulate, goes to parties, has good friends who are girls. I fear he won't fit in, or excel, with the ones who have a spikier profile of abilities. To put it crudely, I worry that he's too normal, I think.

Perhaps you'd like to re-read what you wrote and then think about all the sweeping generalisations you are making.

Many maths students are good all rounders academically; articulate; sociable; sporty; musical; into a broad range of extra curriculars; interested in politics; ambitious and career focussed. Many of the very top students tick many of these boxes and would indeed seem very "normal".

disquisitiones · 27/11/2015 19:59

That may be where the other candidates at her school fell down, rather than GCSE grades.

But the feedback was that the candidate's academic profile wasn't strong enough.

In any case it would be very rare for a candidate with the required academic profile not to get a sciences interview just because of their PS.

MrsMolesworth · 27/11/2015 20:01

She should definitely apply. If she does, and they don't call her to interview, it's a disappointment but we all fail sometimes and she'll get over it. But if she never applies because you were too nervous of allowing her to fail, that could be a life long resentment.

I agree that those who weren't called to interview may not have shown a strong enough extra curricular academic profile. No idea what that would be in field of NatSci, but presumably there are Nationally recognised clubs, summer schools, talks she could attend, research groups she could have joined, papers she could have submitted. In the Humanities and Arts all these exist and the really keen Oxbridge candidates get involved from an early age, not for their CVs but because of passion for their subject.

fastdaytears · 27/11/2015 20:04

She should definitely try and she has you to pick her up and dust her off if it doesn't work out. Other than on MN, most of the world don't go to Oxbridge.

NatSci at Durham is a great course so a good back up for sure.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 27/11/2015 20:04

'Papers she could have submitted' - really? For undergraduate? Things have certainly changed since my day if this is really the expectation these days.

MrsMolesworth · 27/11/2015 20:12

OP - with the ASD and anxiety issues: DS2 has the same. I get round this by discussing with him beforehand the pros and cons of trying out something he may have preconceived ideas about. If you discuss ways to handle it if she doesn't get in, as well as ways to handle it if she does, you may find she can prepare herself. We can't protect them from disappointment long term, we can only teach them tools to handle disappointment (and success - equally stressful) when they meet them.

Jenijena · 27/11/2015 20:18

I didn't get into Cambridge, but wasn't disappointed, my heart was always stuck on Durham where I did a LOT less academic work than I'd have needed to if I'd gone to Cambridge. But I don't regret applying, or the experience. Or even the rejection letter saying I lacked the intellectual flair necessary... (Which was and is true, to be honest...). Encourage her, say you believe in her, but let her look at her other options too.

I work for a RG university, although not in admissions. I think she would have a very strong chance of an offer at my institution (and others), even if Cambridge isn't the right place for her.

purpledasies · 27/11/2015 20:18

it would be very rare for a candidate with the required academic profile not to get a sciences interview just because of their PS

But if you look at the statistic on Oxbridge admission, they do not only interview those with straight As. Mostly As and a few As ought to be good enough, so I would suspect it's some other reason they didn't get an interview. Possibly just unlucky with applying for a popular course at a popular college which happened to have loads of really good applicants this year. But not a reason to discourage a child like the OP's DD from applying.

MrsMolesworth · 27/11/2015 20:21

I agree with purpledaisies. Being strategic about which college you apply to can make all the difference.

HocusCrocus · 27/11/2015 20:32

I agree with purpledaisies. Being strategic about which college you apply to can make all the difference.

Is this true at Cambridge? At Oxford everything DS heard on open days and I have read says that the University really tries to avoid this kind of approach so that , in as far as they can, they make sure across the board they get the right applicants even if not to their 1st choice of college.

disquisitiones · 27/11/2015 20:45

But if you look at the statistic on Oxbridge admission, they do not only interview those with straight As. Mostly As and a few As ought to be good enough, so I would suspect it's some other reason they didn't get an interview.

But the selection for sciences at Cambridge is made based on AS UMS rather than GCSE profile. Again, in my experience, PS will rather little effect if the AS UMS are in the right range.

For those who think extracurriculars are or should be an important factor for admissions in Oxbridge science: please go and talk to admissions tutors. Basing decisions on scientific extracurriculars would be very, very unfair as it would strongly disfavour kids from backgrounds without the knowledge/finances to access these. Attending summer schools, attending lectures, getting work experience in labs, all require cultural capital.

And we wouldn't expect even a prospective PhD student in sciences to have submitted a paper! That would be truly insane.

purpledasies · 27/11/2015 20:46

Yes, it is more of an issue at Cambridge than at Oxford. Oxford centralise their applications so they are all considered equally, then allocated to a college (of your first choice if available). At Cambridge it's all done by the colleges. There's a pool system which is supposed to even things up, but it will make a difference which college you apply to to start with, and how many others happen to do so for your subject.