Am I right to discourage dd1 from Cambridge application (NatSci)?

[roundandroundthehouses]

Dd1 is currently Lower 6th and, for a long time, has intended to apply for NatSci at Cambridge. However, I'm concerned that she'd be wasting an application, due to her grades at GCSE and feedback from the current year's applicants.

She is doing AS Physics, Chemistry, Maths and English Lit, whilst following the Further Maths course at home as her school doesn't offer it. Physics is by far her best subject, but her GCSE result doesn't reflect this.

The offers and interview invitations have now started coming in for pupils in the year above. Of the two pupils who applied for Cambridge NatSci, neither was offered an interview. One of them was given feedback that this was because his academic profile was not strong enough.

This chap had 4 As at AS level, so it must be his GCSEs that were the issue. He has 7 As and 6 As. Dd1 has 6 As and 4 As. Two of the As are in Physics and Chemistry. Although both were high As, and unexpectedly 'low' given her previous performances (normally in the top three in her year), those are the grades that she got.

To me, that makes her situation clear, but dd1 is determined to apply anyway. Both dh and I went to Cambridge so we know the form - however, neither of us went for NatSci, which is (one of) the most competitive for applicants.

I'm torn between not wanting to shatter her dreams and advising her, realistically, that she would probably be wasting one of her five applications. Can anyone suggest a middle ground?

OP, if she really wants to go for it, please support her. Just be sure she's applying because it's what she wants to do and jot because you both went to Oxbridge.

You say she doesn't react well to things not going as she expected - well, if she really looks into the stats, the competition is high, so surely she isn't automatically expecting to get in, so anything else is a bonus? She sounds like a bright girl and her ambitions should be encouraged.

Other advice about liaising with school to find out their views is sensible of course.

Whilst there is pooling of candidates, it makes sense to be strategic in which college to apply to. This website can help you to be strategic.

When I was at school (a longish time ago) strong Cambridge candidates were asked 'have you thought of which college you might like to apply to?' and more borderline candidates 'have you thought of applying to Newnham or New Hall?' Things have probably changed quite a bit, New Hall isn't even New Hall any more. I also felt that I had a slight advantage bring a girl applying for Physical NatSci as there aren't as many female applicants. But I am not convinced now that it made that much of a difference if any.

How would your DD get on at interview?

Just to say, if it really is what she wants to do, she could have a crack this year, if she doesn't get in and her heart is still set on it she can work really hard for A level and have another go next year! You're in a strong position of you've already got good a levels.

I did this back in the day - first time round at Oxford I just wasn't ready for it. Second time round at Cambridge I was like a different kid. And if either of my two ever are keen to apply then I will definitely advise them to take a long view of it. Mind you at the mo they want to be hairdresser and train driver respectively and definitely don't want to go to university as it would mean leaving mummy and daddy ...😄

Wow, lots of different viewpoints here. I will mull it all over.

Pico2, when put on the spot verbally she either clams up or doesn't know where to stop. If the questions are about Physics, it's more likely to be the latter. She will definitely need some interview practice if it comes to that!

ProfGrammaticus, the mathematicians were a very varied bunch. Some very similar to my dd1, others very similar to the way you describe your ds. Others were somewhere in the middle. My dh was one of those :) .

MrsMolesworth, thank you for your reassurance, and I'm glad that things have been going well for your ds. Dd1's self-care is worryingly bad - in particular, she needs to be coaxed to eat. Over the summer my elderly Mum was very ill, and I was away from home a lot caring for her. Dd1's weight - already very low - dropped right down into the red zone. All the advice tells us that by 17 our teens should be learning to cook a bit for themselves, in preparation for uni. Dd1 currently can't even eat by herself, never mind cook. So all this may be academic anyway, if you'll forgive the expression. She may need a few more years before she can live independently.

You would have to research how Cambridge choose candidates for Nat Science interviews but for medicine, they were very clear that they rank candidates according to AS and BMAT scores and choose the top however many to interview. PS not a factor at that stage.

If you do any research into Cambridge admissions, you will see that they are very clear that it's all about the ums. So if I heard that someone with 4 A's at AS hadn't got an interview, I'd assume they'd got low (relatively speaking!) ums. And I'd say to my daughter, work hard this year, do the best you can in the summer, and look at your ums when the results come out. (Last thing I looked at, Cambridge were saying that for sciences they'd expect an average of over 90% ums in your 3 most relevant AS subjects.)

And I (not having any experience of anywhere but Oxford) feel that the college environment might be better for kids who need a bit of extra support - nice to be somewhere where people know you, rather than being one of thousands of freshers? I don't know though :) But you get practically looked after too - she could just go to hall rather than cook, etc.

About five sixths of Cambridge applications are unsuccessful - if you apply, it has to be with the knowledge that the vast majority of people don't get in, and you have to be prepared for that. But that's a decision for her to make, tbh, not you - I think it would be wrong to discourage her.

IMVHO this girl should wait and see what the UMS grades on her AS look like.

If they are very high (over 90%), then an application is definitely worth a punt to Cambridge.

I would bet my bottom dollar that the chap who didn't get an interview missed the UMS scores (an A at AS can be achieved with low 80s).

My dd is also in Y12 and similarly sciencey. She won't be able to look at UMS grades on her ASs, because physics and chemistry are now linear. She won't be doing the AS exams in these subjects, just the A levels.

IMO the op shouldn't discourage her dd, just step back and let her decide. Yes she probably won't get in, but then most people who apply to Cambridge don't get in. As others have said, she may end up resenting you if you discourage her and she refers not applying. If she applies and doesn't get in, she will be in good company. Isn't Durham full of people who didn't get in to Oxbridge?

She may end up resenting you if she regrets not applying.

Isn't Durham full of people who didn't get in to Oxbridge?

It really is, plus a few of us who knew we weren't smart enough and didn't apply! Which makes you rank slightly under the Oxbridge rejects!

Like lots of others I think you should let her apply - it's just one space - and it has the advantage that it means that she will have to get her UCAS form in early so by Xmas will probably be sitting on an offer or two. (I got my first offer on October 7th!)

But - yes - this needs to be the year she works like a dog.

Re: mathmos. There is a complete range. I personally think that you should only go if you start off really into maths as you will spend an enormous amount of time doing maths. But there is a complete range of people. In our college (of 8) we included someone representing the university at two sports, someone who went on to be a professional singer, someone who was shagging his way around the college, someone who didn't really care about maths at all but her strict Asian parents wanted her to be a doctor and this was her way out.

I'd say go for it and support her. If you do, be prepared for a major form-filling nightmare as they want details of every course taken whether passed or failed including UMS marks.

DS applied (and got in) on the back of some far from stellar GCSE results this year. We went to an open day at Cambridge and they all stressed that they look at the whole application, not just the grades. They also said that what they are looking for is upward trajectory - i.e. can they see that the candidate is improving or likely to improve. Some people only show their ability at AS and beyond.

DS was not a typical candidate and Cambridge did do exactly what they said they would do and looked at the whole picture.

Disquisitiones - the sweeping generalisation are exactly what I'm asking about! As a Cambridge reject offer holder who missed the grades myself, I just don't know whether there is truth in them or not.

I do know that Oxbridge takes only the very best mathematicians - and that some of those are not NT. My worry is that the best will not be NT, meaning that DS may be simply unable to compete. If that's the case he'd be better elsewhere.

I did natsci with 6A* and 4A at GCSE
To be fair my As were in English Literature, English Language, French and German if I remember correctly! But I also only had double science at GCSE as the school didn't offer triple and I didn't have further maths at A-level as the school didn't offer it and unlike your daughter it didn't even occur to me to study it outside of school! I think from my experience at this stage she's got a perfectly good chance.
I would say that I struggled with the maths all the way through but your daughter doing further maths herself will massively help.
I think that Cambridge also has an excellent pastoral care system because the colleges are small communities and you get so much contact time with supervisors, it's hard work and stressful but also supportive - if you miss near daily contact someone cares why! I did my PhD at another Uni and was shocked. They had much less work set but then they had one weekly tutorial which was optional so no-one was too fussed if they were there. As far as I can tell a student could have gone AWOL for whatever reason for weeks before anyone noticed fine if their friends are looking out for them but still less supportive in my view.
On the 'looking after herself' front, from what I recall some colleges can provide accommodation for all 4 years, others can't, some have good hall food that everyone always goes to and is included in the accommodation price, others less so or it's priced separately so people cook more. Worth considering these things. She won't be alone though, one friend of a friend on my course had to be shown how to use a cash point as she's never withdrawn money before... This did stand out as slightly unusual but a whole range of behaviour was pretty normal - the natscis, mathmos and engineers spent a lot of time together in my experience and were pretty accepting of everyone. On the flip side we had one natsci who was blues rower and probably one of the best known and well liked guys in college.
So basically, just let her apply, encourage her to explore her passion for the subject giving her things to go on her personal statement and talk about at interview.
I was told by my physics teacher 'I might get into Cambridge but I certainly wouldn't be a success when I got there' and my chemistry teacher that I shouldn't apply because people from our school wouldn't fit in there. Fortunately my parents supported me to the hilt and I was lucky enough to make it. My mum may have had a slightly smug conversation with my physics teacher after I graduated with a 1st

Prof - are you concerned about your ds competing with "spiky profile" or non-NT candidates/students? I don't suppose they're the same. (My ds is definitely spiky profile - perfectly fine at most things, very good at maths (y10, did the BMO1 yesterday) - and he's completely NT.)

Admission success for maths at Cambridge is so low anyway, thanks to STEP requirements, that I'd worry more about that than what the other candidates are like!

ProfG, I asked my dh (maths prof) and he said your ds sounds like he has the right attitude and should work hard, do STEP and see how far it gets him. He also said read The Bluffer's Guide To Mathematics for a description of the different types of mathematicians - there are plenty like your ds in personality

I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that a young person with health/ weight issues should be given advice to 'work like a dog', even if it's just for the rest of the year. That focuses ever more on the Cambridge goal and is likely to make any disappointment (and therefore possible further impact on health) that much greater.

For 2017 entry Cambridge will be without science ASs for a large number of (particularly) state school applicants. I don't think we know yet when they're going to introduce pre-testing but if they do they'll have to do it for everyone, including those who have still sat AS. That might well be helpful for OP's DD. If the pre-tests aren't introduced for 2017 and her ASs aren't great then might she consider Oxford and PAT? I know it's not the same place and she may have eyes only for Cambridge but Physics will by then have a really lovely shiny new building (if she minds about that sort of thing) and it's a bit closer in ethos to Cambridge than anywhere else.

disquisitiones I'd find it very helpful too if you'd tell us what the 'standard' maths offeree brings to the table. I've got a very similar sounding DS to Prof. Very 'normal' indeed and has always got gold and went through to the next round in Y11 and got a merit (I can't remember earlier years in terms of subsequent rounds). He hugely enjoys FM too but I just assume he's not in the range. I'm not sure he'll consider maths because I think he thinks that too - but your opinion of what's an ok standard to consider maths at a decent uni would be valuable for sure.

Cross post with lots of useful Prof related posts - The Bluffer's Guide sounds great!

"I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that a young person with health/ weight issues should be given advice to 'work like a dog', even if it's just for the rest of the year. That focuses ever more on the Cambridge goal and is likely to make any disappointment (and therefore possible further impact on health) that much greater."

This. Oh, this x100. Yes, of course go for it. She sounds like a worker anyway. But as an experience. As a if I don't try I'll never know. As a hey, if I get in it'll be fantastic, but if I don't there's lots of other brilliant places. But not as a be all and end all.

Bertrand - yes, completely agree.

Bluffer's Guide going in the stocking - thank you!

If you are concerned about your DD being "looked after", she may do better in the college environment than in a university that is all one big place.

4 years of accommodation and hall food is very different to getting a couple of months in and already having to pick who you will live with in the 2nd year (and then find somewhere to live yourselves).

There is certainly no harm in applying - as has been said, you do get 4 other spaces.

Atia spiky profile is probably the wrong phrase. I was indeed trying to describe NT candidates who I see as being different from DS1. What I mean is, he's a really good all rounder. Really "gets" literature, reads loads of fiction, soaks up languages like a sponge, got full raw marks at art GCSE, very musical. Won't the best mathematicians be really really good at maths, but less good at arts and languages, and outstrip him in the end? Or is it just that very clever people can get all A* at GCSE (if they work)??

I'd forgotten about STEP - I suppose the results do sort the candidates pretty well.

He did the senior kangaroo yesterday, not the Olympiad, and I just wonder is that good enough?