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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

New Mum-of-Medicine 2016 Applicant Thread

122 replies

Needmoresleep · 08/09/2015 14:26

It looks as if it will be a long year. I would welcome company, and as importantly, advice from those who have been through it before.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 11/09/2015 07:25

Peter, perhaps I should have phrased it differently. Why the relatively low "entry standards" and student satisfaction:

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?s=Medicine

Three great hospitals. Yet last year they were giving out offers of 3As. KCL do not guarantee London students a place in hall, but she is not too bothered about living at home as her course will be demanding and she will bond that way, plus be able to keep up school friendships and existing sport.

OP posts:
alreadytaken · 11/09/2015 07:43

You've mentioned the GCSE results only vaguely but exact grades are critical if she wants to apply to e.g Cardiff. CBL might suit her better than PBL ( explanation of difference www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/choosing-a-medical-school/pbl-courses/ ) and it's a good choice for the more academic student. I believe Exeter do a similar thing, She might want to consider Nottingham. Avoid Manchester, home of PBL.

Search and you'll find information from Kings students about Kings poor satisfaction ratings. You might also get good information by asking a UCL medical student.

hellsbells99 · 11/09/2015 07:58

Nottingham open day is this weekend.

Molio · 11/09/2015 08:18

I don't have a clue about which schools do PBL and which do anything else Needmoresleep, but whatever it does, I'd avoid Durham on the grounds that it's quite a way away from the main uni in a sciencey enclave down in Stockton, with all the main uni sports facilities up in Durham City.

St Andrews could be a good choice, on the sports front at least - some people find it a disincentive that they move away to do clinical but as you say, for your DD it could be a plus.

Cardiff seems to be having a rough old time at the moment too. If I had another one applying for medicine (which I don't, at least for the moment, thank goodness!) then I'd be wary of it.

KCL may have a particular problem with student satisfaction because it tends to be the insurance for quite a few applicants, precisely because of its lower entry standards than the other London hospitals, so that may colour students' views? Also, it has a reputation for getting rid of a number of students after exams - the lack of 'job security' can't be nice. That comes from two close friends of two of my daughters who went there in different cohorts - one still there and one hated it and changed course completely, also changed uni. Not much help!

DontwriteKCLoff · 11/09/2015 09:33

I work for KCL in a lowly capacity and while I am not uncritical of my employer (very far from it!) I do feel I ought to stick up for KCL when it comes to the MBBS. I am not as slavishly pro-KCL as Peteneras*, whose son is a student there. I do, however, feel that it has a lot going for it as a place to study medicine.

KCL (King's College London) is very highly rated for research both overall and specifically for medicine and related fields (internationally, not just nationally). An intercalated degree from KCL will be well worth having. The hospitals it's most closely associated with are top notch. However, the student satisfaction ratings have not been all that high, which as far as I can make out is because the medical school organisation wasn't always as good as it could have been. The medical school had grown through mergers and became very large and rather unwieldy. Not enough thought went into how to run and manage such a large medical school.

This has been a big concern for the college management, not least because the medical school is so big that poor ratings there pull the entire college score down, so there's been a lot of pressure to try to improve matters. It has taken time, and has not been an easy process, and there is still a lot to do, but this year overall satisfaction scores in the National Student Survey from MBBS final year students were 66%, up from 57% last year, with every area of the survey showing increased ratings from MBBS students (so we were told in a circular, I haven't checked the league tables myself).

The 2016 MBBS intake will be the first to go through a new curriculum which will be a big improvement on the old one. Much better thought out. I know some of the people involved in developing it and have a lot of confidence in them.

So I'd say don't write KCL off!

*I'm not writing this in my professional capacity. I am a regular who has namechanged to make this post.

Needmoresleep · 11/09/2015 10:51

Really, really useful. Thank you all so much. I posted on the Yr 13 thread that we had a rocky August with both DD and DH becoming seriously ill - with different things. Though better, DD is starting this crucial term physically and mentally exhausted, plus we missed the week set aside for research and a possible whistle stop tour of various campuses. Something has to give, and it is open days and BMAT.

The information on Kings is really useful. DS' experience of LSE has been very positive, and DD is happy to stay. Though it is possible DD would study outside London and never want to come back, London children often don't travel well. It seems inevitable that London Universities get lower satisfaction rates, whatever subject, so it's valuable to have more on detail of the underlying London, College and course elements. Given DH's quick recovery was due to very prompt, by the book, treatment in A&E in one of these hospitals, despite the problem being impressively rare, we owe them a certain loyalty. But also, as it happens with these things, KCL have a good record of making offers to pupils from DDs school, in very direct contrast to, say, Bristol.

The link to the different teaching methods is also useful. I had been looking for something like that, but had not found it. Dyslexia is weird and brings with it advantages as well as disadvantages. (One example is she seems to have learnt GCSE language orally, so has retained much more than her peers. Indeed seems capable of real, albeit basic, conversion with Germans!) She takes in a lot in lessons, so it seems sensible to keep to similar teaching methods.

Her academics are sound, especially for a child who was told at 10 that she did not stand a chance of a place in a selective London school and should be thinking about "country boarding". GCSE is 7As and 3 As, plus, if we ever needed to argue the toss, something else that is technically worth A. AS was 5 As with an average of 90% UMS, and she has 3A* science predictions. So nothing ruled out. Written down it sounds like stealth boasting, but she is the poster child for late developers. The concern is that, given her very slow processing speeds, at some point academic pressure and volume over-ride her coping strategies, so good pastoral care might be the tie breaker. St Andrews' three year pre-clinical course, with London clinical after, is therefore attractive.

More research this weekend. However two or three are now starting to stand out, so what looked like an overwhelming task at the start of the week is now looking more manageable. She likes the sound of Dublin, so a gap year or a parallel Irish application are both acceptable Plan Bs.

More ideas welcome.....

OP posts:
alreadytaken · 11/09/2015 12:50

the problems at Kings have, I'm told, gone beyond poor administration. Student satisfaction is still very low, although it's good that it's picking up.. In comparison Cardiff medical school does well on student satisfaction now, after some problems in earlier years led to a change in the curriculum www.gmc-uk.org/Cardiff_Medical_School_2012.pdf_48654295.pdf They also made quite a mess of the application process in at least one year but that doesn't affect you once you have a place.

I'm not advising any students on admission this year so wouldn't claim to be up-to-date. I would be interested to hear what current problems might be as my child may be helping a disadvantaged applicant this year.

With 25 points on Cardiff's scoring system (one more if you can argue the other A*) she has a good chance of interview there. Cheap student accommodation is a benefit for parents who have to pay.

Durham has a university bus linking its campuses but after a couple of years they have to go to Newcastle anyway. Very expensive accommodation for medical students in Durham.

It would be interesting to see acceptance rates at Bristol for grammar school students at Bristol schools and other grammar schools.

Barts are very picky, btw, so you need to be very careful about checking she'd meet all their requirements if she applies there. They are delivering a course in Malta now, that probably means the entrance requirement for that plan b option have changed.

Always ask a current student for advice on just how much "PBL" courses actually have, use the student room if you cant visit. Last time I looked Sheffield and Nottingham had very little.

Molio · 11/09/2015 13:20

Durham does have a free bus service but it takes 45 minutes to the sports area and the main residential area in Durham City. That length of journey is bound to restrict social life generally.

sluj · 16/09/2015 19:23

Can I join? My DS is a prospective medical student for 2016 too.
We are looking at Keele on Saturday then he has to choose between that, Leicester, UEA, Southampton, HYMS and Nottingham.

This is like a hurdle race and we just have to get to the end Smile

peteneras · 16/09/2015 22:20

Sorry for not responding to your post sooner Needmoresleep, but I thought you might show me that CUG Medicine table that I had actually looked at prior to me posting my first post here on this thread. As it turned out, I considered the CUG table a complete joke and totally ignored it when I see:

  1. Graduate prospects from Oxford and Cambridge have ‘two bars’ whilst the likes of Plymouth and Keele have ‘five bars’ - whatever it means.

  2. Keele that was only established in 2002 is placed 7 places above Manchester which is more than a century older and from where Keele initially sourced its students; and 12 places above St Andrews, Scotland’s oldest medical school from where Keele also sourced its initial students. This is not to mention this new school at Staffordshire is more than 10 places higher than KCL whose roots go back almost a millennium!

  3. As to why the relatively low "entry standards" and student satisfaction at KCL, I suggest you do not delude yourself when you have students like this and many similar that I know of that get rejected. Student satisfaction wise, I see the likes of Edinburgh, Cambridge, Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield - all great med schools - getting only one or two bars in line with KCL. Students at these schools finding the course extremely tough perhaps, a great indicator of these schools producing first-class doctors!

No, I wouldn’t be too concerned about the CUG table. The worldwide much regarded QS 2015-16 Medicine table is the one you ought to look at more carefully. You may need to register (free) with QS to see this table.

Mindgone · 16/09/2015 22:59

My two pennies worth:
IMHO, the best medical school for one's DC, is firstly, the one that they can get into, and secondly, one where they feel they will be comfortable, happy and 'fit in'. Also, the teaching style is important.
And I really don't believe that the age of the school matters a damn!
And lastly, Durham was my DS's top choice, he really felt he would have been very happy there, based on his experience at their open day, sadly he didn't get an offer!

peteneras · 16/09/2015 23:54

And so you believe a med school which was founded last year for example, can be more advanced, more highly regarded, equipped with more state-of-the-art equipment/facilities and cutting edge technology, with more accumulated research into all aspects of diseases and healthcare, created more alumni who would have in turn gone on to develop medicine even further, etc. than a school founded (say) a hundred years ago?

Mindgone · 17/09/2015 16:41

Yes

Obviously except for the alumni, that takes time!

Are you saying you believe all the above to be better, purely based on the age of an institution?

batters · 17/09/2015 17:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

peteneras · 18/09/2015 06:51

Yes, good luck batters and all . . .

Well, it’s absolutely tremendous to learn at least one person believes an (imaginary) med school founded last year is more advanced, more highly regarded, equipped with more state-of-the-art equipment/facilities and cutting edge technology, with more accumulated research into all aspects of diseases and healthcare, than a school founded a hundred years ago.

It’s nice to live in a dream and let the world pass without getting too involved, I suppose. Smile

And do I believe all the above to be better, purely based on the age of the institution? Well, I believe to let the facts speak for themselves and I don’t believe experiences can be bought with any price. Never mind the ultra old masters like Oxbridge and the London Schools that have a virtual freehold of the world’s top two dozen positions but a random selection of a handful of schools over a hundred years old vs schools established since the 1970’s (never mind last year) and their world positions below will soon put things into perspective:

                       Established(circa)        <strong>QS World Ranking 2015-16</strong>

Edinburgh (1726) . . . . . . . . . . 28
Glasgow (1751) . . . . . . . . . . . 46

Manchester (1752) . . . . . . . . . 51
Bristol (1737-1812) . . . . . . . . 56
Birmingham (1767-1825) . . . . . 65

Leicester (1975) . . . . . . . . . . 211

Warwick (2000) . . . . . . . . . . . 219

Exeter (2000) . . . . . . . . . . . . 239

East Anglia (2002) . . . . . . . . . 260

Brighton & S’sex (2002) . . . . . 375

‘Nuff said . . .

batters · 18/09/2015 18:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Northernlurker · 19/09/2015 00:15

Can I point out, peteneras, that the purpose of this thread is to be support to the parent of medicine applicants NOT to have some sort of extended rant about university league tables. Did you intend for your recent posts to have such an unpleasant tone?

peteneras · 19/09/2015 01:25

You can point out, of course, Northernlurker, whatever you like but I’m sure you’ve been in MN forums long enough to know postings on threads, any threads, do deviate to a lesser or greater extent. It may not matter to you but have you considered there may be many others out there who take league tables very, very seriously, not least the universities themselves? In any case, my postings on this thread is just as valid as any others - not a deviation at all - and if you don’t like it or understand it, then there are plenty of other threads to read.

peteneras · 19/09/2015 01:28

Very well said, batters, and I absolutely agree with your last post. I’ll be honest, my DS had a new school put down as one of his four choices in the UCAS form when he applied a few years ago. Like they say, you have to cover all grounds and apply strategically. For sure, if this new school was the only offer he ever had, then it’s this school that he goes to. Oh! btw I’ve never said in a public forum that my DS went to KCL - he may or may not have gone there - all I ever said was he went to a school in London.

My point about the statistics, batters, was to demonstrate to a poster who took exception to a remark I made half a dozen posts uptread about Keele, a new school being several places above Manchester in the CUG table together with several other discrepancies I find in the CUG table. As it happened, Keele didn’t even feature anywhere in the entire QS list of almost 400 worldwide schools!

LaVolcan · 19/09/2015 11:52

My niece has recently graduated from Keele medical school. Apparently, it was not as new as all that, and had been offering medical degrees for 50 odd years but they were offered as degrees of Manchester University. I think it may have been her only offer, but she did land her first choice F1 post, so it certainly has served her well.

Northernlurker · 19/09/2015 20:47

It's not deviation I object too. It's an overly hectoring tone.

peteneras · 20/09/2015 11:30

You object to . . .?

Who the heck do you think you are to be telling me my tone is overly hectoring? Have I been in communication with you or addressing you personally or in any way in liaison with you in order for you to be telling me my tone is overly hectoring? Seems to me you’re overly protected in a comfortable little cocoon to be engaging with the outside world. Frankly, I don’t see how on earth anyone’s hoping to be a doctor coming on so precious and pampered so as to be offended with what little mild words I’ve used so far. You obviously haven’t spent anywhere near enough time in a busy city A & E Department to be hearing and seeing the goings-on there.

”Can I point out, peteneras, that the purpose of this thread is to be support to the parent of medicine applicants NOT to have some sort of extended rant about university league tables.”

And you’re telling us it’s my “hectoring tone” that you object and not deviation.

What hypocrite!

Look at the quotation above again. Were you not objecting to the league table that I posted? You’re behaving as if you’re the MN mod or the OP. In fact, you’re even overriding the real OP who first initiated the subject of league tables i.e. why KCL appeared so lowly. Medical schools league table on this thread is NOT a deviation, get a grip! There are plenty high-flying potential medics out there who aspire to go to the top schools. Take a browse at The Student Room!

But for sure, I take no instructions from a self-confess lurker what to post or not to post.

Northernlurker · 20/09/2015 15:24
Hmm

Are you feeling unwell?

peteneras · 20/09/2015 20:39

Perfectly well, thank you. Couldn't be better.Certainly not as worried and nervous as you are.

GiddyGiddyGoat · 20/09/2015 20:55

Oh for goodness sake Peterenas. The first thread that was made hoping to support medicine applicants starting in 2015 (that I was on as my ds was applying) had to be 'abandoned' because of its descent into this sort of aggressive posting. It's really not helpful and it's not big or clever. You sound like a bully.
People come here to get some info and support for their dc, not to get embroiled in a stroppy debate about statistics and the value of league tables. Those things are interesting and relevant, but I really do think your posts lack a ... sense of proportion and your tone is, at the least... unfotunate.