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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Original poster

Oxford -- PPE or Economics with Management

210 replies

shockthemonkey · 27/07/2015 13:24

This is the question one of my charges is struggling with.

We all know how hard PPE at Oxford is -- but its acceptance rate at 15% appears better than for Economics and Management at the same uni, with just 7% of applicants accepted.

Whilst he's looking closely at course content, and discovering more about the other four choices he'd be going for in either scenario (PPE or Econ with Mgt), does anyone have any thoughts about the programme choice?

I have no reservations about his academic level nor his commitment to doing what it takes to give him the very best chances. I just know, though, that he'll ask me whether one is "easier" to get in for than the other.

Before looking at the acceptance rates, I would always have said PPE is harder. Even looking at the 15% vs 7% I still think this may be the case -- Econ and Mgt may be attracting more "borderline" candidates than PPE because I cannot imagine schools in the UK encouraging anyone other than their very brightest to go for PPE.

Does anyone have any experiences to share? Thanks!

OP posts:

SheGotAllDaMoves · 03/08/2015 13:00

The PPE course is a definitely motivated (in part) by the need to broaden access.

Oxbridge get it in the neck all the time, but LSE's stats on private/state school are worse!

They are coming under increasing pressure to do something about it and have been disinclined to increase the number and level of their contextual offers (I have some sympathy here, as we are noticing in my department that some students in receipt of contextualised offers are struggling. They have the potential but some of the basic skills are so far behind that they find it hard to hit the ground running).

Instead, they are introducing courses where they feel they can make offers that are realistic to those from a broader rage.

Bonsoir · 03/08/2015 17:04

LSE is late to introduce PPE - a course that is very much trending on UCAS ;) - given its position as a specialist social sciences university and it has introduced as a four-year course i.e. 33% more expensive than a standard three-year degree which maintains all three subjects throughout. It is using it as a trump card over its rivals with longer standing PPE courses.

Needmoresleep · 03/08/2015 17:51

My understanding, based on the talk I went to, was that four years was a way to offer the maths rigour in the economics component that is so popular with employers.

My impression, from MN, is that the French educational system does not face the same problems in terms of maths teaching as the English one does. Particuarly now where we seem to have the challenge of making A level syllabi more rigourous, without putting students off. I doubt the aim is for Universities to play trump cards against each other. Yes they all want to offer attractive, and well respected courses,. not least given that these courses are seriously oversubscribed. Instead to a large extent, as SheGot suggests, they face similar challenges. So, if the group you want to recruit are not able to offer sufficienct maths (or whatever - I think Shegots subject is English) do you:

Increase the course to four years, as many engineering courses have done.
Give contextualised offers, and then watch some students struggle.
Accept that a number of perfectly able students cannot access your courses, because they have not been at the right schools.

Presumably this course will also appeal to French Bac students who may not have taken all the available higher level maths options.

I am curious, though, as to how similar French Universities handle the access problem. Because of the centralised approach are results more even across the country and across economic groups, or are the French less worried about equality of opportunity?

Bonsoir · 03/08/2015 17:59

"Presumably this course will also appeal to French Bac students who may not have taken all the available higher level maths options."

I do not understand what you mean by this. French bac candidates who apply to LSE for a course that requires A-level Maths at A* need to have done Bac S (where there is a heavy maths component, at least equivalent to A-level Maths) and to obtain at least a 16/20. They will also have done a certain amount of Physics (which is very relevant preparation for an Economics degree because of the applied mathematics) and they will, in all probability, have done Spécialité Mathématiques (Further Mathematics) rather than Spécialité Physique (for future engineers) or Spécialité SVT (for future medics). One Spécialité is obligatory. The French bac is a menu, not à la carte like IB, and there are only three possible menus, only one of which offers the level of mathematics required for courses that require A-level maths.

Bonsoir · 03/08/2015 18:02

"I doubt the aim is for Universities to play trump cards against each other."

At the most recent talk I attended at LSE there was quite a lot of good-natured but serious banter by the speakers about rivalry between LSE, King's and UCL, in particular concerning new courses and how they could lure good candidates from one another.

Bonsoir · 03/08/2015 18:07

It's difficult to answer your question about ease of access to HE because the system is so very, very different to the UK. Some institutions, like Sciences Po, have adopted quite aggressive positive discrimination tactics. Other courses, like medicine, have adopted random allocation of places to eligible candidates (you only need 10/20 i.e. a pass to enroll in the first year of medicine) to all faculties in order not have "better" cohorts in one university than another. There are also forcing tactics for non-selective courses (i.e. you might have to attend your local university for a course such as law and have no option of going elsewhere). You get the picture - huge amounts of official social engineering and tinkering to make it all fair. Yet the most competitive courses (e.g. some Prépas) recruit almost exclusively on headmaster/lycée recommendation...

HocusUcas · 04/08/2015 21:34

Crikey, Bonsoir, I am reading this for the first time and have no idea about French education, but this is an eye opener to me..

There are also forcing tactics for non-selective courses (i.e. you might have to attend your local university for a course such as law and have no option of going elsewhere).

Nothing useful to add , just had never realised this and it brought me up short briefly.

Bonsoir · 05/08/2015 06:33

Indeed, HocasUcas - while there are some real positives to aspects of French education (discipline/application and, if you do a Bac S, a very "complete" academic experience that keeps many doors open), I have yet to be convinced of the relative merits of French HE (apart, perhaps, for engineers - though even there there are choice issues). The first two years seem especially gruelling (be that at Prepa or at a university). There is still far too much emphasis on competing with peers for places/prizes rather than on acquiring useful skills.

summerends · 05/08/2015 07:30

There are some merits to French HE. It is relatively cheap, Also for some subjects like medicine it allows a DC time to mature before making the decision since the mark bar for the Bac S is low and the decision can be left to that final year. However as you say the competitiveness of the first two years more than make up for the competitiveness of entry in the UK.
Undergraduate degrees in literature for example also include courses in other subjects similar to the U.S. system so that might be regarded as an advantage. Those aren't competitive. The training and profession of engineer is very highly regarded.

However the narrow minded requirement for certain institutions to enable entry into some important career paths is a major disadvantage as it creates a very restrictive pure academic competitive environment.

Bonsoir · 05/08/2015 07:36

It is relatively cheap

Some of it is very cheap and some of it is very expensive. My DSS2 was accepted at Ginette for Prépa. Had he chosen to go there, (full boarding) fees would have been €18,000 per year (two years), followed by fees of at least €45,000 at HEC/ESSEC/ESCP for the following three (or four) years, plus living costs. HEC is sending out very clear messages that it is likely to increase fees very significantly in the near future (and the Ecoles de Commerce fees have been rising at a tremendous rate anyway in recent years) so who know what it would all have cost at the end of the day.

Needmoresleep · 05/08/2015 08:01

"Yet the most competitive courses (e.g. some Prépas) recruit almost exclusively on headmaster/lycée recommendation..."

This is the one that surprised me. Years ago when I worked in Paris everyone I came across had been educated at ENA, bar a few who had been to "les mines" (and which was blamed for a variety of Character defects). This had an advantage in terms of cohesion, in that everyone seemed to approach things in the same way, but a lso led to an inwardness and reduction in the capacity to cope with outside influence.

I assume prepa is preparation for Les Grandes Ecoles. One friend from those times had attended ENA from quite a large West coast town, yet her gaining a place had been significant enough for it to be a large news item in the local paper. Presumably most of her classmates went to local Universities and would then find it difficult to access routes towards top jobs in Paris.

Are you suggesting prepa is largely accessed via strong reports from the right schools. A bit like how Eton and others use to be able to access Oxbridge places for their students four decades ago. If so my guess is that those schools need to be very careful to write quite different references for British Universities.

I am also surprised that you suggest that Bac S is the equivalent of A level maths. Is there an equivalent of Further Maths in the French system? A level maths is not seen as a major hurdle for bright mathematicians. FM is harder, though again probably not much of a hurdle for the candidates DS knew who were sucessful in gaining places at Cambridge. My undestanding is that STEP is required for maths, engineering and by one or two colleges for economics, to allow for differentiation.

It is odd that the French have such a good secondary system and then what appears to be a weak tertiary system. But unsurprising if students who are strong candidates for the most prestigious tertiary institutions in France, are frustrated when the UK seems to apply different criteria. Presumably without access to informed advice beyond The Student Room, they find the Uk random or unfair.

summerends · 05/08/2015 08:05

You are right that some of the better private options for the Prepa are not cheap and the Ecoles de Commerce have been 'commercial' in their fees as well as teaching. Who knows what the future will hold for the rest of French HE but like the healthcare it has n't seemed sustainable for many years more years than I care to remember but it still keeps on going.

Bonsoir · 05/08/2015 08:56

I explained Bac S Maths further down, NeedMoreSleep: there are two levels of Maths within it, and for pupils who take Spécialité Maths as there choice of option (the choices basically being Maths or Physics/Chemistry or Life Sciences) they have covered similar (not identical) ground to Further Maths at A-level. The major difference between Bac S Maths Spé Maths and A-level Maths and FM is that the A-level candidate will have covered more topics but at less depth/difficulty. French bac exams (and the French examination tradition) give candidates a lot of time to answer questions but those questions will require significant head-scratching whereas A-levels (and the English examination tradition) expect candidates to work very fast. Obviously there are arguments for both approaches and I tend to think that getting used to both systems is excellent preparation!

Bonsoir · 05/08/2015 08:57

their

Bonsoir · 05/08/2015 08:59

STEP is a real barrier for French bac UCAS candidates because the dates of the examinations clash with the dates of the Bac examinations.

Bonsoir · 05/08/2015 09:02

Are you suggesting prepa is largely accessed via strong reports from the right schools.

Yes

A bit like how Eton and others use to be able to access Oxbridge places for their students four decades ago.

Yes

If so my guess is that those schools need to be very careful to write quite different references for British Universities.

Not really because the format/systems/culture are completely different (as are the languages). Though French references tend not to be sufficiently detailed for UK universities and teachers need coaching on this.

Needmoresleep · 05/08/2015 09:44

But my point remains that students whose schooling should earn them access to top flight institutions in France, but no particular advantage in the UK, may find they do "better" staying in France.

Ie that they are not being discriminated against but given comparable treatment to pupils from top British schools, and indeed equal treatment to all other candidates in a process that is trying to identify potential rather than reward achievement. A pupil coming from a school where multiple As are the norm, will not be surprised that some fellow students just have a minimum AAA with a self-studied AS FM. Once the initial settling in period was over, few would expect the A level grades to provide an obvious indicator of future performance. Indeed the ability to self study sucessfully will provide the second student with some advantage which may help compensate for missing some skills which might have been learned at school.

In terms of FM A level FP2 seems to provide a challenge for those who don't see themselves as natural mathematicians. STEP certainly does. However I agree about speed, which can be a real issue for some very able but slow mathematicians. The English system also seems to reward hard work and practice. (I did try to explain to DS that this was not necessarily a bad thing!)

Bonsoir · 05/08/2015 13:05

It is inevitably easier to progress from one stage of education to another within a single educational system/culture. There are inevitable difficulties (sometimes insurmountable, sometimes minor) when switching between systems. For those (increasingly numerous) students who do move between systems it is wise to do as much as possible to understand the potential pitfalls. Recognising potential pitfalls/discrepancies and looking for ways to overcome them is not an accusation of discrimination.

halvedfees · 13/08/2015 14:30