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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Oxford -- PPE or Economics with Management

210 replies

shockthemonkey · 27/07/2015 13:24

This is the question one of my charges is struggling with.

We all know how hard PPE at Oxford is -- but its acceptance rate at 15% appears better than for Economics and Management at the same uni, with just 7% of applicants accepted.

Whilst he's looking closely at course content, and discovering more about the other four choices he'd be going for in either scenario (PPE or Econ with Mgt), does anyone have any thoughts about the programme choice?

I have no reservations about his academic level nor his commitment to doing what it takes to give him the very best chances. I just know, though, that he'll ask me whether one is "easier" to get in for than the other.

Before looking at the acceptance rates, I would always have said PPE is harder. Even looking at the 15% vs 7% I still think this may be the case -- Econ and Mgt may be attracting more "borderline" candidates than PPE because I cannot imagine schools in the UK encouraging anyone other than their very brightest to go for PPE.

Does anyone have any experiences to share? Thanks!

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 28/07/2015 17:00

Jeanne: Warwick very actively recruits candidates with the French bac. It is pretty straightforward for French candidates who meet the requirements of a course at Warwick to get an offer (in almost any discipline for which the French bac meets the prerequisites). Oxbridge (and LSE) are incredibly competitive for French bac candidates. There is just no comparison between them and Warwick in ease of access.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 28/07/2015 17:03

Are you sure it's the French bac that is the problem?

Often people blame the wrong things, and become negative, but really, if you look at students who can get into Warwick and those who can get into Oxford (or LSE), you'd find there is no huge gap of the kind you're imagining.

It is always worth applying if you think you might be good enough, and really want to go. It's only one choice in five, and often teachers get it wrong about who's good enough and who isn't.

irregularegular · 28/07/2015 17:17

Yes I think you need all 6/7s really. IB offers do tend to be relatively high I'm afraid.

It's a tough one. All the best to him.

Think I better name change now!

Bonsoir · 28/07/2015 17:28

Jeanne - yes. There are very specific skills that the French bac doesn't develop that are necessary for success at Oxbridge. As to LSE - I fear their selection process is more random since I do not understand (and nor do all my fellow coaches) whom they give offers to (on the rare occasions they do).

JeanneDeMontbaston · 28/07/2015 17:34

Try their admissions office? Usually they'll be able to help.

Bonsoir · 28/07/2015 17:41

Do you really think that we haven't done that, multiple times? Confused

JeanneDeMontbaston · 28/07/2015 17:50

It seemed quite possible, yes. A lot of people don't realise it's ok to contact admissions and ask lots of questions - it's a common problem, along with feeling that there's some magic 'difference' about Oxbridge that means students who look very good shouldn't even bother trying. The problems are linked, and it's a real pity when students lose out because misinformed teachers think they are 'no hopers'.

I don't think anyone should be written off as that, aged 18.

Bonsoir · 28/07/2015 17:55

As I posted earlier, Jeanne, you are approaching the issue of French bac candidates applying through UCAS as if the same variables applied as to UK candidates. They don't! And so your feelings are not relevant.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 28/07/2015 18:01

No, I'm not - I'm just not going on anecdata. It really might be worth your while looking at how universities assess candidates, instead of guesstimating.

alteredimage · 28/07/2015 18:57

Bonsoir

"This is not the case (I have the data from UCAS)."

If you note my sentence included the word "here", ie what I have picked up from French who post on MN is that huge status is attached to which school and University you go to. French students now seem willing to consider the UK for tertiary education, but only if they get a place at one of a very small number of top Universities.

(Ironically I have heard the same the other way round from a London based French mum whose DS was determined to go somewhere Northern even though he was considered a strong Oxbridge candidate. He wanted to avoid being sucked into what can be quite parochial groups of Frenh students. The concern being that though French students may choose to study in the UK they often want to continue socialising with other Parisians.)

There also seems to be an assumption that the French Bac is treated somehow differently. I can't see why this would be. Top economics departments are focussed on their world standings and will want to recruit the best students they can. They will also have good experience of a range of different school graduation qualifications. Again the MN orthodoxy seems to be that the French education system is superior and that the French bac provides a better introduction to University than A levels. Academics will be spotting patterns and be wise to which groups of students might struggle. Certainly Cambridge has done a lot of work on their selection criteria and eventual outcomes and I assume Oxford has done the same.

We went through an economics application last year with DS (though selecting the more mathematical courses so Cambridge rather than Oxford E&M). Competition is huge and so though he was always a good candidate, advice was to apply to all four (Cambs, LSE, UCL and Warwick) with the hope of getting one. And treat it as a two year process so if you don't get anything first time round, get the best grades you can and apply again the following year. As it was he got one, LSE, first time round but knows others who got Warwick or UCL, or indeed Cambridge but not LSE and on a second application.

Each University will score based on their own criteria. Observation suggests that Cambridge may look for superb mathematicians, and those DS knew who got places first time round were international, and exceptional mathematicians probably strong enough to have gained places reading maths. Further observation suggests that Warwick, which has the biggest Erasmus programme in the UK, may like candidates who offer languages. LSE is very aware that it has problems attracting applications from state educatted British students from outside the M25, and that even if they do apply may take up places at Oxbridge or Warwick for financial reasons. Its all on the margin but my guess is that if you were a European student you might have comparative advantage at Warwick, whereas an applicant from northern England might fare better at LSE (and be able to keep the forlorn bloke running the Northern Society stall company during freshers week.) If you will interview well then obviously you might have a better shot at Oxford than at LSE, who dont interview and who have about 13 applicants for every economics place.

But unless you actually saw the scoring system you wouldn't know and there will be a whole heap of other variables. Its tough, but tough for Brits as well as Europeans or indeed anyone else. And pretty tough once you are there as well. People fail, and from what DS has seen, its not obviously those who have been through the British educaitonal system, or those with the weakest school grades. A levels seem to provide a perfectly adequet preparation.

So back to the beginning. Apply for the course that appeals most. Keep an open mind about courses away from Oxbridge. If necesscary treat it as a two year process. A good candidate should get a place somewhere, but its not easy, so grades, PS, school reference etc need to be tip top. Crying foul and blaming problems on some sort of British prejudice against the French Bac, or assuming that British Universities will recognise its obvious superiority, wont get a candidate very far.

alteredimage · 28/07/2015 18:59

Sorry wrong username, But Bonsoir will spot the continuing unwillingness to accept her views on the British educational system.

sausagepoo · 28/07/2015 19:10

I did PPE at Oxford (15ish yrs ago) and I'm not at all bright, so things must have changed! E&M people were generally very mathsy, overseas students and PPE students more artsy.

Bonsoir · 28/07/2015 19:26

I haven't cried foul - I am extremely sanguine and think candidates should apply where they have a change of being accepted. I am more than aware of the discrepancies between systems which are a fact of life. I do not perceive any injustice.

3% of French UCAS applicants include Oxford as one of their five choices. This hardly suggests that only Oxbridge will do.

Bonsoir · 28/07/2015 19:27

chance

Bonsoir · 28/07/2015 19:42

LOL sausagepoo - two of my cousins read PPE. One runs a yoga retreat in Fiji and the other is a stand-up comedian Confused

sausagepoo · 28/07/2015 21:05

To be fair, there do seem to be a fair number of my intake who are now MPs or well on their way there (although I would argue about their levels of 'brightness' too), then there are us normal folk (think I filled the northern female state comp quota), who I'd estimate make up c.30% of the intake. I reckon it's complete luck whether you get in or not, so no harm in having a go in you're OK academically.

halvedfees · 28/07/2015 21:39

Once you've got the interview - yes complete luck in my experience with my son and also my son's school's opinion. So don't get too fixated on getting in!!

summerends · 29/07/2015 07:17

halvedfees I can imagine how much harder your DS would have found it getting an offer for PPE at Oxford but being rejected at this stage by his IB results.

It sounds from other posters as though being very strong at maths is a prerequisite for advancing in economics so in your DS's case he needs to work out whether his interest in the other PPE components outweigh his interest for history. Should he want the broadness of PPE then won't he be in the company of similarly very bright students at Warwick? If historical surroundings for his undergraduate years are incredibly important to him and not something that can be postponed for the next stage then that does exclude Warwick.

halvedfees · 29/07/2015 09:03

suumerends - I would hope with a 43 - perfect in all but Maths, they might let him in anyway :)

However, Maths is not necessary for PPE at Oxford - I know someone who got in with History, Geography and French at A level. So doing Maths at HL was a mistake - only LSE require HL Maths, everyone else is happy with SL or even none at all! HL Maths is well-know to be harder than A level - this study

www.birmingham.ac.uk/Documents/college-eps/college/stem/Activities/stem-education-network/Understanding-the-I-B/James-Hanscombe-TMAT-Paper.pdf

confirmed a 5 at HL was equivalent to an A at A level, and an A at A level is all Durham wants. However, like Durham, most universities haven't woken up to that fact yet. Apart from Warwick.....

(On a side issue Cambridge did a study that proved a 775 would perform just as well as 766 at HL - see
www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/admissions/research/docs/ib_performance.pdf)

As for Warwick - good reputation, but it's like a business park....

PS Sorry for being an IB bore!!!

Bonsoir · 29/07/2015 09:08

halvedfees - I'm sure you are right and that your DS is more than adequately prepared by his particular IB combination/results to succeed on the PPE course at Oxford. However, top universities are inundated with applications from more-than-qualified candidates with little to choose between them. Maths is pretty useful for Economics - hence the barrier gets raised in order to eliminate candidates of whom there are just too many.

Bonsoir · 29/07/2015 09:15

If your DS is thinking of reapplying with his grades in hand he can ring/email admissions to ask whether he is likely to get an offer if he applies. I know plenty of post-results French bac holders who have done this (on my recommendation) and it very usefully prevents wasted applications/dashed hopes.

halvedfees · 29/07/2015 09:24

Bonsoir - but unfairly in case of IB students - as I said a 5 at HL Maths is equivalent to an A at A level - and an A at A level is all that the universities want. So to ask for a 6....

Also the IB students have 2 targets to hit - an overall score and the scores at HL. Harvard and the like are only interested in the overall score (40+).

Sorry - it's a bit close to my heart at the minute :(

Bonsoir · 29/07/2015 09:28

halvedfees - I'm sure you are upset but, tbh, I'm not sure a 5 at IB HL Maths is competitive for Economics. Both my DSSs have been accepted on (straight) Econ degrees and their fellow students all seem to have Maths A and Further Maths A or 7 HL in the IB.

halvedfees · 29/07/2015 09:34

Bosoir - you miss my point. The universities (apart from Imperial/LSE -but I'm not talking about them) ask for an A in Maths at A level to be guaranteed a place on PPE. The Birmingham study above confirms what has long been known by Maths teachers of both A level and IB - namely that IB is harder than A level - and that people who score a 5 at IB would have scored at least an A at A level. Hence the unfairness.

Bonsoir · 29/07/2015 10:07

I don't think I missed your point - I think you missed mine Wink

Honestly and truthfully your DS need have no regrets: A at A-level Maths (without FM or Physics) would be very weak relative quantitative preparation for Economics at UG level on a very good Economics course.