Sadness of Open Days

[Gemauve]

So on the stand this morning at 0905, I was approached by a charming woman and her keen, enthusiastic daughter. It's the first university they're visiting, in fact the first university that either of them has ever been to, but they're really looking forward to ... and they reel off a list of good places. Daughter really wants to do our subject, and has clearly checked out the top places.

And what A Levels are you doing?

Ah.

Well, you can't come here, and for what it's worth, we're slightly more relaxed than the other places you've named and I know that you won't be able to go to any of them to do our subject or anything even vaguely related. I didn't say "and on past experience from when we were even more relaxed to the point that we might have admitted you, you would almost certainly fail, and the last cohort where we did that less than 5% of them made it to finals". Sorry.

"My school said these subjects would be ideal".

They're catastrophically wrong. Did you look at any prospectuses before choosing your subjects? No. And off they went, their hopes destroyed by 0915.

What the fuck are schools playing at? Why do they let children who don't have middle class parents get into this situation?

My dd is at a very large comprehensive and she is the only one doing Music A Level. She said the induction day at sixth form was interesting with her current class of one! I am trying to find someone to teach her Grade 8 theory as this seems to be recommended.

Her choice of other subjects is 'ahem' unusual.

As humanjam says, there is no point in taking a subject that you don't have the aptitude for. My DDs have taken maths and sciences, but if they weren't that way inclined, then A levels in history, a language, English lit etc. would still have been good.

As humanjam says, there is no point in taking a subject that you don't have the aptitude for.

I'd take a lot of convincing that the students at small-town FE colleges are substantially less able than students at minor public schools. But the former will be taking less preferred A Levels in large quantity, while the latter will be pretty much the epitome of "Informed Choices".

DS went to a good local comprehensive. He often wonders why old friends of his who were in top sets never made it to university etc. whilst he did. The answer is probably because we were involved in DS' education and had been university educated ourselves, so knew the ropes. It is a real shame that so many able children in state schools don't get as far in education as they could but end up working as shop assistants etc.
As for the Informed Choices booklet and the "best universities", the middle class graduates already knew what were the best subjects to take to get into the better universities (which they also knew about because they went to them/mixed with other graduates). Not a level playing field unless schools make sure all students are given good advice.

People always say that you shouldn't take subjects if you don't have the aptitude. This is true but it still doesn't explain why so many students with As/As at GCSEs are being encouraged to take A level subjects such as law, psychology, business studies etc. I see many students with A/A at A level in maths + 2 non-facilitating subjects who really shouldn't have been advised to do the non-facilitating subjects over traditional academic subjects, given their GCSE record.

But one non-facilitating at A Level is fine spinoa. In fact three non-facilitating is also fine for plenty of RG degrees. You only need facilitating subjects if you're doing a degree that needs them - that's the definition.

DS started 6th form with a mix of two facilitating subjects and two noddy more arts-based.

Unfortunately, if his predictions are right, he's going to fail one of the facilitating subjects at AS.

Hence somewhat up-buggered Uni chances.

We've told DS to choose A level subjects he likes and is good at.
Surely most people do the same? I guess it's difficult if you want to do Medicine and are rubbish at, or hate Chemistry.

My ds is currently doing Physics at Durham his A levels were physics, maths, FM and psychology he had a offer from Oxford too but didn't get the grades they wanted. He achieved 2A* A and B (psychology) At that time, we are talking 3 years ago Maths and FM were for his offers were classed as one subject rather than 2 separate ones for Durham and Oxford. Doing psychology was not at all a negative factor or hindered his application he also had offers from UCL.

We've told DS to choose A level subjects he likes and is good at. Surely most people do the same?

Part of the problem is that, indeed, most people do that. That's why "Informed Choices" exists.

No, Titchy, it is not fine - because even if you get into RG degrees with these options you are often far, far less prepared for the course than had you done traditional academic subjects. And you won't get into the very top, selective courses at all. The latter is fine for many students, who wouldn't get the required grades anyhow, but a real shame for A* students, who then in turn may well find it harder to get the "top" jobs later on because of their undergraduate course and institution.

As the OP wrote above, students with mostly A*s at GCSE at grammars and private schools don't take subjects like business studies, law at A level etc.

For students with lower GCSE grades it may well not be the right choice to take 2+ facilitating subjects at A level but for a student with mostly A*s they should under most circumstances be doing 3+ facilitating subjects at AS, not 1 or 2.

Dolly, he had 3 facilitating subjects, ones which are ideal for a physics degree, and was applying for a subject which is not particularly oversubscribed outside the very top places. Both points mean that the fourth subject wasn't an issue. Had he done maths, physics, psychology and e.g. business studies (i.e. 2 facilitating subjects instead of 3), the story might well have ended differently.

It wouldn't have been a problem, because it was his fourth subject. It would have been a problem if he'd been applying with Physics, English, Photography and Psychology, say.

Re somebody who wants to be a doctor and hates/is rubbish at Chemistry - the short, tough love answer is: game over. Make another plan.

Lancelottie, I hope your son is wrong - must be a worry.

A major problem is leaving teenagers to choose the subjects they like rather than subjects that are more acceptable to universities or will make them more employable.
How do teenagers know that sociology (or any of the other "soft" subjects) is a subject they like if they haven't already studied it?

Spinoa et al - FACILITATING AND TRADITIONAL ACADEMIC SUBJECTS ARE NOT THE SAME.

They overlap obviously, but don't try to tell me or anyone else that Music, RE, Economics or Latin aren't well regarded or a good preparation for university.

The Trinity list is FAR better guidance on subjects that are good preparation as far as I'm concerned.

Facilitating is only important if you aspire to a degree that needs them, or to keep your options open if you're not sure. But to say your hopes of a decent university place are screwed unless you have three off the Informed Choices list is bull. If you have three from Trinity's C list maybe, but not the facilitating list.

Someone up thread made the good point that choosing degrees that sound like jobs rather than degrees that sound like school subjects is a class divider.

The same applies, a fortiori, to A Levels.

spinoa I agree with with what you are saying, physics at Durham is one of the most competitive courses to get into, it was on a recent league table on the telegraph as being the most competitve course in the UK I'm pretty sure it was no1. Given how competitive and selective the course ds had chosen it is very oversubscribed, im sure there would have been many applicants that would have had 4 facilitating subjects on offer talking grammar/ private school. Not 3 like my ds if we dont count FM as those top top uni don't count it at 2 anyway . I was more worried your post would put off parents who's DC had done psychology and might be put off by your comments and others up thread. Glad your not advercating that, that's all.

We've told DS to choose A level subjects he likes and is good at. Surely most people do the same?

We told dd to choose subjects which kept as many doors open as possible. Experience has shown us that one science subject is much more use with another science or maths.

In fact dd chose very carefully, examining university prospectuses and seeking advice, but she has realised that it's not perfect. She has had a 'grand plan' of what she wants to do for a long time (speech therapy) and chose A levels accordingly - Maths, English, Biology, Psychology. However, she is now considering other options if plan A doesn't work. Her preferred plan B is probably out of reach because she hasn't done Chemistry.

I agree that pure subjects are more flexible at A level/ Higher level but disagree that degrees that sound like jobs are a class divider as my husband, ex, me and our 3 kids all did/ are doing degrees that sound like jobs and ended up with jobs in that area at the end of them (although 2 of them are still at uni). Maybe it's a class divider in that if you have loads of money you can afford to think "what the f do I do with my French degree" after 3 or 4 years.
Some degree of appliedness in school subjects can be handy though, my son did technological studies at advanced higher and so far in his mech eng degree it has been his most useful subject in terms of making life easy for him (he chose to do it instead of applied maths but there's a lot of applied maths in it any way.)
In 5th year (when he did his highers but before choosing advanced highers) he did do a lot of looking at admissions requirements and emailing folk before choosing his AHs to ensure he had the right subjects. We helped with that as did the school. It's sad if some pupils don't get a kick up the bum from the school telling them to spend several hours on uni websites looking at admissions requirements and degree options.

They do count FM - they don't include it in their offers but do use it in deciding whether to give offers.

Titchy, I haven't criticised RE, latin or economics anywhere in this thread. It's semantics to talk about those on the facilitating list v those on the Trinity list because the subjects of real concern (business studies, critical thinking etc) are on none of these lists.

And again I simply disagree about not worrying about "facilitating" or "academic" subjects if your prospective degree doesn't require them. Just because universities cannot afford to turn students away for less than ideal choices does not mean that universities wouldn't prefer students to have them. In maths, physics and engineering we would love to insist on maths, further maths and physics for all students but then we would exclude too many state school pupils plus courses wouldn't be viable financially.

DS1 spent ages on uni websites choosing the ideal combination of subjects to take for an architecture degree.

Started 6th form. All going well.

Then he changed his mind about his degree choice.

Rats.

Can I just ask again - why why why are students in the UK forced to make these decisions so early??

I suppose Dorothy if they weren't being asked to make these decisions it would mean studying all of the facilitating subjects to A level standard. Lots of people think that would be a good thing but it wouldn't suit all children.

My sister in law was a teacher in a fairly rural area. Her degree was in English and she wanted to teach English. She ended up teaching mostly media studies as that had far more demand at a-level in her school than English.

She loved it and was a great teacher, but found it quite depressing on the basis that so many pupils thought it was just like English literature but a bit more fun for A level and were caught out for university applications.

2Rebecca - I think the original comment was about school subjects that sound like jobs (eg Business Studies), not degrees that sound like jobs