Sadness of Open Days

[Gemauve]

So on the stand this morning at 0905, I was approached by a charming woman and her keen, enthusiastic daughter. It's the first university they're visiting, in fact the first university that either of them has ever been to, but they're really looking forward to ... and they reel off a list of good places. Daughter really wants to do our subject, and has clearly checked out the top places.

And what A Levels are you doing?

Ah.

Well, you can't come here, and for what it's worth, we're slightly more relaxed than the other places you've named and I know that you won't be able to go to any of them to do our subject or anything even vaguely related. I didn't say "and on past experience from when we were even more relaxed to the point that we might have admitted you, you would almost certainly fail, and the last cohort where we did that less than 5% of them made it to finals". Sorry.

"My school said these subjects would be ideal".

They're catastrophically wrong. Did you look at any prospectuses before choosing your subjects? No. And off they went, their hopes destroyed by 0915.

What the fuck are schools playing at? Why do they let children who don't have middle class parents get into this situation?

In any case, the point I was originally making was not that science-literate lawyers don't exist. The point was that aspiring lawyers would do well to consider a solid education in science (or other fields) before specialising in law, and should certainly not consider law A-level as a prerequisite for a successful career.

I did not, perhaps, express my concern about the point you had made very well.

What I was concerned about was the assumption that stress and pressure at the top Uni's was likely to be higher. Stress caused by being away from home, struggling with loneliness, fear of failing or letting your family down, struggling with the work, concern that you are on the wrong course, not being able to manage money, or drug and alchohol use - is not going to be any less detrimental to a young person's health whether they are at a top Uni or have scraped a place at a less prestigious institution. In fact for some young people they may already feel a sense of failure because they did not achieve their original aspiration of getting a place on more highly regarded course.

In my mind its like saying to someone working on factory line or in a shop your job is not as stressful as being a top flight lawyer or a brain surgeon. Evidence shows that jobs like that carry their own pressures, particularly around lack of autonomy.

Just because a specific course sounds more challenging to us, does not make it more or less so for the individuals involved.

Interesting point on failure silver. If you see your friends off to somewhere more highly ranked it can effect students self esteem also. The current fashion of high expectations for everyone is fine to a point but can be unrealistic. It's the mismatch between ability and expectation I think can cause problems.

404 I completely agree. One good thing about law is that you can find your way into it from any direction.

SilverBirch my point was that at university level I think it's fairly well known that the top universities have a higher incidence of mental health sufferers. All those things you mention are present for all young people at whatever the institution but there's an added layer of pressure at certain universities coupled with a higher than usual number of students predisposed to mental health issues because of their innate perfectionism or whatever. It mirrors the higher incidence in top achieving schools for exactly the same reasons. Anyhow, the important thing is to provide strong pastoral support and medical help, not argue about incidence. l

Headofthehive a very able student going to a less good university where they're not especially challenged and not amongst their academic peers can destroy self esteem also.

Absolutely mollo as I said mismatch between expectation and ability. It does indeed work both ways.

Molio, I was unaware that it was well known fact, interesting. Has there been any specific research you can point me towards?

It sounds like for some students it might be better to find a course where they are more likely to excel rather than one where they will find themselves in the bottom quartile.

No SilverBirch I find the whole 'linking' on MN fairly pointless, since for so many pieces of research which posters produce like rabbits out a hat there's some other piece of research to counter it. Besides which, I don't have 'specific research' :)

Perhaps you could ask any tutor working at a top university or teacher working at a top school or psychiatrist working in the field of adolescent and student mental health or even any GP serving those same kids. Apologies if you're a psychiatrist yourself, but if you are and believe that the incidence is no higher at top universities then all I can say is that your views probably run counter to those of a number of your colleagues.

Please note that I'm restricting my comments to universities and schools, not the wider incidence of mental health issues.

Molio, sorry if I have offended you in any way, certainly not my intention.

No I am not a high flying academic or a psychiatric professional. I am just an ordinary person, a parent working in a normal job. I know I am amongst proper academics here, so I was just interested.

I do have many friends and acquaintances though, and quite a few have had their DC struggle through HE, drop-out or experience MH issues whilst attending more ordinary institutions. My DH works for a prestigious university and over the years there have also one or two horrifying cases of students taking their own lives.

As a concerned parent with a high-achieving child, I had (unfounded worries) about the pressure on him being detrimental to his personal well being. Now again, even feeling the need, to make it explicitly clear to him that our love and pride in him was unconditional.

I was just unaware that MH issues were higher in certain institutions to the degree you indicated and was just interested. Lets leave this point now as I'm feeling a bit stupid on this thread.

I'm not in the least offended SilverBirch! Also I don't think either of us have said anything especially stupid! These problems are bloody wherever they occur and the vital thing is recognition, understanding, support and obviously medical help where required.

Not everyone feels the pressure though and I'm glad your son is coping well. You are right to be concerned though, I think I'm possibly right in thinking we all want our children to be happy as an overarching theme rather than brilliant!

Going back to the original post however, as parents, we are all feeling our way and trying to help our kids the best we can.

I feel very at home in the world of academia, found it easy to be honest, but feel less able to help one of mine who won't do A levels.

It's a real minefield as a parent.

Trying to support and encourage, finding out whether the information you DC is using to make decisions is valid, handling your own fears and prejudices along with dealing with a young adult who may or may not recognise you only want them to keep their choices open.

Looking back at that time, with the benefit of hindsight, it shocks me how little he or I really knew. It was indeed fortuitous that some of the unknown unknowns didn't catch him out.

I would have given my eye teeth for a thread like this at the time.