Sadness of Open Days

[Gemauve]

So on the stand this morning at 0905, I was approached by a charming woman and her keen, enthusiastic daughter. It's the first university they're visiting, in fact the first university that either of them has ever been to, but they're really looking forward to ... and they reel off a list of good places. Daughter really wants to do our subject, and has clearly checked out the top places.

And what A Levels are you doing?

Ah.

Well, you can't come here, and for what it's worth, we're slightly more relaxed than the other places you've named and I know that you won't be able to go to any of them to do our subject or anything even vaguely related. I didn't say "and on past experience from when we were even more relaxed to the point that we might have admitted you, you would almost certainly fail, and the last cohort where we did that less than 5% of them made it to finals". Sorry.

"My school said these subjects would be ideal".

They're catastrophically wrong. Did you look at any prospectuses before choosing your subjects? No. And off they went, their hopes destroyed by 0915.

What the fuck are schools playing at? Why do they let children who don't have middle class parents get into this situation?

In this day and age, any school that does not offer Further Maths at AS and A2 does not deserve students.

You do have to be careful with Further Maths for some courses though. Certainly for Medicine it doesn't count as another A-level or even at AS for scoring if Maths is also included. It is perceived as "too easy" as it's course is so similar.

It is perceived as "too easy" as it's course is so similar.

To be more accurate, it's argued that if you're doing A2 Further Maths, then that you've also done A2 Maths doesn't constitute two full A Levels. It's not entirely unreasonable as an argument. It does worry me that some schools only offer Further Maths as a "full" slot and therefore people end up doing M, FM and one other: with "one other" is physics then you're OK for almost all physics and engineering courses that might want FM, but as you say it leads to some high-stakes juggling if you're less decided as to what you might want to do at university.

My DD was the first in our family to go to Uni so we did rely on school advice. Luckily she was at a good comprehensive who get their pupils to aim high. Also as DD had no idea what she wanted to study, but had very high goals for where she wanted to study, she did a lot of research herself. She started lower sixth studying 5 AS levels, Maths, Eng Lit, History, French & German. Maths was a struggle as she is a natural essay writer, but she was determined to have that as she didn't.t want to do A level science and needed to keep her options open. It paid off as she got her dream place at Cambridge, but only decided on a subject as she was filling in the UCAS forms.
DS went to a Grammar school and they were excellent in their advice too, mainly that Oxbridge isn't everything and you have not failed if you don't get in there or to med school. They knew the competition and made sure the boys kept their options wide too.

In this day and age, any school that does not offer Further Maths at AS and A2 does not deserve students.

It's hard enough getting maths teachers that are qualified to teach GCSE.

And of course maths and further maths are two full A-levels. They are both 6 modules each.

Thanks, Imposter

And of course maths and further maths are two full A-levels.

Sadly, some courses disagree. Medicine at Edinburgh:

A Levels: AAA in Upper Sixth including Chemistry, plus Grade B at AS level in a fourth subject. A Levels must include Chemistry and one of Biology, Mathematics or Physics. Biology at AS Level required as minimum. For both AS and A Level, only one of Mathematics or Further Mathematics will be considered. Human Biology may replace Biology but General Studies will not be considered. GCSEs: Grade B in Biology, Chemistry, English, Mathematics. Double Award combined sciences or equivalent at Grade BB may replace GCSE grades in sciences. Additional Applied Science and Applied Science will not be accepted. All examination grades must be obtained at the first attempt of each subject. Those applying with resit qualifications (other than two GCE AS Level modules) will not be entered into the selection system unless under very exceptional circumstances (for which verified evidence has been provided prior to UCAS application).

That's because they want a range of subjects, not because further maths isn't a full a level.

am i being naive or can the student in the op not go to a local college and get the grades needed? I find it strange that the student herself didn't research the subjects needed. Most people (even shock horror working class students) are savvy enough to know what they need to do to get to the top universities.

It is important that students and/or parents do fully research the various Uni requirements for courses they are considering. If my DS had gone with several teachers advice and taken Further Maths to A2 (6 modules) rather than History to A1 (3 modules) in addition to his Maths, Biology & Chemistry he would not have been considered by the majority of Medical Schools even with all A* results.

As it was, he was fortuitously influenced by the better field trip option rather than a rational decision about his options!

Going back to your original point OP, it has just occurred to me that there is absolutely no reason why the Government cannot give advice, via a booklet delivered to schools but addressed to students, about choosing A levels that meet the requirements of the most popular academic courses. A-Z would probably work and at least point the first time student/parent of student in the right direction.

Taking Law A level and not History A level is a common mistake. Not taking a science or maths is a common mistake too. Any advice can be given with the caveat that the student must check the requirements of individual courses if they have any questions or doubts about suitability of subjects. Lots of 16 year olds are not sure what they will study later but at least a subject guide for all young people would be a start.

It is likely that someone studying IT and Business Studies may not have been capable of getting an A at maths anyway, but I presume you didn't discuss this OP, so we will never know! Lots of selective schools offer Business Studies, by the way. It can be a useful addition for Art students who are judged on portfolio and not just academics.

Indeed. The problem with the RG "Informed Choices" booklet is that you have to know it exists in order to read it.

Anecdotally, there are schools playing "not for the likes of us, not relevant to our students"; on another recent thread, someone talked about MFL being irrelevant in their school because their local university didn't offer MFL. But how common that is I don't know, I suspect not very.

My gut feel is that the problems arise when students in schools and/or families without a history of selective universities start courses, find they're pretty good at it and enjoying it, and the idea of applying to RG universities and/or traditional courses arises late in the game, when the initial assumption was that if they went to university at all it would be a local post-92 to do a "vocational" course. Whereas students from backgrounds where RG universities are part of the warp and weft start out doing subject combinations suitable for that purpose, but which less selective universities will be more than happy to accept.

Certainly, some schools don't even discuss universities until end of Y12, or possibly even later, by which time a variety of ships have sailed, whereas over in the private sector it's in the background of decisions throughout the school. The aspiration aside, the practicalities of it mean that the advance planning is always going to make their path smoother.

My DS has no idea what he wants to study but is choosing Maths, F Maths, Geog and History.
I really hope these subjects will cover a broad range of degree choices.

While the details of universities may be sensible to cover in yr 12, I'm quite shocked that schools aren't advising their pupils properly before the sixth form choices. DDs did this sort of thing in yr 10/11 in the pshe/citizenship/statutory RS rotation slots. And in any case they've scrapped offering business studies and ICT, replacing that with computing.

DD went to a class at Cambridge last week and they made it quite clear that she needed at least AS in Further maths. It's alright people saying if the school don't offer it, they don't deserve pupils.....but for the vast majority at state schools, life is not that simple. DD's school technically offer it BUT only a handful want to take it, so therefore the course isn't viable to run. If the education authority/Government want schools to run these courses then they are going to have to provide additional funding. I guess they are not bothered though in reality. DD is going to self study FM at AS level with the help of a private tutor - a lot of people aren't in the position to be able to pay.

Gemauve - sorry, didn't read your post properly.

The problem is, what if you're actually no good at something? I couldn't have done A Level Maths or Chemistry to save my life, so however badly I may have wanted to be a doctor/scientist, that was that. And so it should be. I see threads time and time again on here about people complaining about A Level Maths - teachers saying the students aren't up to it, parents moaning that it's not fair if their child can't take it with a B grade GCSE. The only solution is to make it easier - is that a good thing? Or perhaps a two-tier qualification - one "facilitating" tier and one "actually I am good at Maths" tier.

At ds's sixth form college there are hundreds of students taking Maths. They know it's a useful/essential subject. That's why they've chosen it. Ds says many students are struggling, and the real winners are private Maths tutors.

I do think that all students should continue with Maths in some form, no matter what their other A Levels.

I do have to trot out my anecdote at this point that I know a young person who did A Level in Drama, Law and Biology, and went to a (not a real!) university to do Law. Cue any MNetter worth her salt having a fit of the vapours. This girl is now at a Magic Circle firm no less. (And not serving the tea, either, before anyone thinks that!)

DD's school technically offer it BUT only a handful want to take it

My home city's schools went comprehensive, with the complicating exception of the residual super-selectives, from the 1975 intake onwards. The former mainstream grammars, plus a handful of purpose-build 1960s big comps, kept their sixth forms; the former secondary moderns had never had sixth forms and didn't sprout them.

It became apparent once the 1975 cohort hit the sixth form in 1980 that small sixth forms (ie, the sixth form you get at the end of a five-form intake comprehensive, which in those days would be about fifty students, today perhaps a hundred and twenty) simply weren't viable: they couldn't offer a wide enough range of subjects, and even if the funding were available the classes were too small educationally. When schools that size had been grammars it was just about OK, but you couldn't form decent A Level groups in a school of the same size with a comprehensive intake. There were complicating factors which are too tedious to go into which meant that the large purpose-built comprehensives had also seen their intake change from 1975 onwards, so the problem was universal over all the non-selectives that had sixth forms. Qualifications like the CEE kept the numbers in the sixth forms as a whole viable, but did nothing to address the problem of A Level group sizes.

The LEA responded by talking about removing all the sixth forms and replacing them sixth form colleges, involving the closure of a few small schools to re-purpose the buildings plus moving some A Level teaching into what were then technical colleges. There was an outcry from the former grammars, who responded with a very complex system (which persists to this day) of split-site consortia sharing teaching and facilities in order to keep numbers viable, with students doing different subjects on different sites through the day. Schools without sixth forms joined these consortia, directing students there rather than to the large colleges.

I suspect it's similar in a lot of areas: former grammars with small sixth forms, plus former secondary moderns feeding into sixth form colleges, with no coherent planning of minority subjects over any of the estate.

Facilitating subjects like further maths are the victims of this, as are music and German. Meanwhile, it's fairly easy to get the numbers for less preferred A levels, so teaching of those proceeds apace, offered in most places without needing to travel.

Narvine, then Grade 8 theory.

Finding someone to teach you Grade VIII theory is no easier than finding someone to teach you A Level Music. It's logistically easier because most A Level syllabuses have a practical element, whereas Grade VIII theory is just an exam, but exam boards usually direct external candidates to places that are being used as test centres for their own students; someone will correct me, but I think all the coursework for AS/A2 is externally marked rather than internally marked and externally moderated, so being an external candidate is easier.

Most conservatoires offer A Level music as part of their Saturday youth activities, and given the very small numbers taking A Level music those schools which do offer it will be very, very welcoming to anyone wanting to transfer in.

The situation is pretty grim, but it's not so very different to minority languages. Minority subjects are a hard problem, and outside big cities, even harder. Parents tend to resist proposals to centralise sixth form teaching into 2000 student+ centres, which is about the size you would need to guarantee viable group sizes. The argument that in schools A Level teaching costs you nothing because the staff are there anyway doesn't hold water for subjects where GCSE takeup is also low, so you only need sufficient staff to teach Y7 through Y9.

Personally I will advise my children only to go to university if they know their career path, and need a vocational or a degree to get there. Or if they are genuinely academic with a love for a particular subject. Otherwise IMO they're better off taking some time and going to uni a few years on. I was pushed to go straight from school, picked any old course, which once it came to looking for jobs after graduation, realises it wouldn't get me into any of the careers I wanted, despite being a very high class degree.

A-level wise, if they have no career goal after GCSE, all things being equal, I'd say Maths, Chemistry and one other "classic"- history, english, MFL etc. That combination should keep most doors open? Anyone agree? Obviously if they're going to fail or be average in maths and chemistry, then they should consider the subjects they will get the best grades in.

I also agree that there is no point in students studying for A level Maths just because it's useful. I would not have been able to study for A level Maths because I did not have the ability or interest.

A few years later I was studying for a professional qualification and part of the course involved statistics. The text book that we were taught from was A level statistics, I coped fine.

Studying Maths and Sciences at A level keep doors open but there isn't much point in taking these A levels if you don't have the aptitude or interest.

Gemauve - I think it depends where you live. My DD1 could have her choice of 5 or 6 different people to teach her grade 8 theory (plus me only I would never dream of doing that). But she is lucky she's not a year younger because if she was, she wouldn't be able to do A level music at her school (they aren't offering it for the year below) - although maybe if she was a year younger that would have tipped the numbers and they might have offered it - we'll neve rknow. It's a numbers game now. The thing about conservatoires is that's all very well if you live in London or Manchester or Edinburgh (or is the Scottish one in Glasgow? It's not on our radar because (a) so far awa (b) they don't do her instrument) or Birmingham or Cardiff - but what if you don't live in or near those places? Access to arts education is a very serious problem in some parts of the country. :( But it does seem like universities and conservatoires are aware of this (from experience of preparing to apply for 2016 entry)

humanjam - I'd say maths english and history would be a better combination for keeping doors open. Not having chemistry will shut science doors but science doors really aren't the only doors there are. Chemistry won't open any non science doors. Physics probably more useful?