Sadness of Open Days

[Gemauve]

So on the stand this morning at 0905, I was approached by a charming woman and her keen, enthusiastic daughter. It's the first university they're visiting, in fact the first university that either of them has ever been to, but they're really looking forward to ... and they reel off a list of good places. Daughter really wants to do our subject, and has clearly checked out the top places.

And what A Levels are you doing?

Ah.

Well, you can't come here, and for what it's worth, we're slightly more relaxed than the other places you've named and I know that you won't be able to go to any of them to do our subject or anything even vaguely related. I didn't say "and on past experience from when we were even more relaxed to the point that we might have admitted you, you would almost certainly fail, and the last cohort where we did that less than 5% of them made it to finals". Sorry.

"My school said these subjects would be ideal".

They're catastrophically wrong. Did you look at any prospectuses before choosing your subjects? No. And off they went, their hopes destroyed by 0915.

What the fuck are schools playing at? Why do they let children who don't have middle class parents get into this situation?

Private schools also can afford to have staff dedicated to university transfer and career advice. Done well, this can be highly motivating for those who decide to do the 'hard' sciences, especially as they have benefitted from specialist teaching, plenty of lab space and a budget that allows for plenty of consumables.

All of which, if you've had from age 11 (or younger?) means you feel at home in a lab and just believe you can do it (as it's just normal that a high proportion do). It's a virtuous circle.

Is your DD's school private, word?

At ds's sixth form college, the individual pupil has to be motivated to seek out information. There is a careers department which says it has prospectuses and so on, but if a student doesn't want to investigate, then that's that. If someone has unmotivated/uninformed parents, then they are at a disadvantage. No one has been told there's an open day at X institution etc. There was an information evening for parents last week which was singularly unhelpful. It was trying so hard to be neutral and non-judgemental that the woman ended up just repeating "It's up to the individual." The only enthusiasm she showed was for the nearest "university" which is not even an ex-poly.

Now, in an ideal world a student would be an eager beaver doing all their own research, but you know that in many schools there's a very firm guiding hand telling the pupils what to study, how to apply, and even escorting them to universities for look-sees (privileged private views).

Yes another I agree, my daughter did sciences at a private school and the resources were fantastic. They also brought in specialist admissions tutors to give the pupils mock interviews. Therefore she was given a mock interview and top tips by somebody who interviews for that subject elsewhere.

It is a sad fact it runs in families as well. You pick up so much hidden information and expectations. Even my ten year old talks of her UCAS form...

Hope you don't mind a question. What would the ideal A levels be for Computer Science and Maths at university. I'm presuming -

Computer Science
Maths
Further Maths ?
anything else?

For computer science and maths with computer science, maths, FM and computer science are fine.

For maths, the same three are OK, but not having physics would be a slight disadvantage at one or two very top places. I think there were other threads discussing the fact that undergraduate maths contains a lot of physics. But not having physics wouldn't affect getting into the vast majority of good maths courses.

Interestingly, despite being one of many of my family to go to university, one of my parents teaching at a university and the other teaching in FE, I got shockingly bad a level advice from them. They were sciences and I wanted to do literature. Subsequently, I was encouraged to do a frankly bizarre combination of subjects that now, as a teacher, I'm quite embarrassed about.

My university choice wasn't much better- I had a 'smother' so bribed and blackmailed to go to the geographically closest one. Even middle class parents with lots of university experience can give shocking advice.

For maths, the same three are OK, but not having physics would be a slight disadvantage at one or two very top places.

I've not looked at maths requirements in detail recently and I'm not interested enough to do it again, but my memory is that I saw one department had a rubric like "we recommend that you either have A Level physics or opt to do M3 and M4 as part of your further maths offer". But recommendations about modules are hardly unusual.

Thanks. Useful to know about Physics being an advantage for Maths degrees. Physics has a high turnover of teachers and is a bit ropy so I'm wondering how we could plug that potential gap. I presume all the offers will be high grades.

Back in the days when LEAs we're a peer in the land they could (and IMO) should have staffed an "aspirations officer" who would travel round schools and meet with the ten identified "high academic potential" children in each year every six months from year 9 to year 13. It would be their job to know this stuff, to have contacts at each university and know where's best for what (and which of the good options might be the best for for a sporty/teetotal/rural/urban child). They'd know off the top of they're head that law A level might not be a good choice for a career in high flying law, and indeed that a law degree might not be the best choice. And of they don't immediately know what the best route is to a career in quantum chromodynamics then they'd know who to ask.

The LEA can't do that any more but I wonder whether it might be a goer for the big academy chains? It would be a great part time job for certain MNers.

noble yes it is a private school.

Quite how they get such good results has been well worth watching over the years. Often better than the local grammar school.

Small classes are part of it ( though it's an MN thing that this doesn't matter). Excellent teaching. Rigorous and flexible setting in everything. Lots and lots of extra curricular ( happy engaged active girls get good results). High levels of discipline...

I am an academic in maths, with considerable experience of Oxbridge maths entrance. Many Cambridge colleges insist on physics for the maths tripos, and not having physics is a disadvantage in getting an offer even for those colleges that don't insist on it. Similarly not having physics will be a disadvantage for Oxford maths, Imperial maths and to a somewhat lesser extent Durham maths, UCL maths etc. Not having physics will not be an issue at all for maths courses which make offers to those who meet the baseline grade requirements - which covers almost all maths courses that I didn't just name.

Note however that not having physics is a slight disadvantage even when it is not required to get offers or required by the terms of offers. M3 and M4 help prepare for undergraduate applied maths/mathematical physics modules but M3 and M4 do not suffice as a complete substitute for physics because of their narrow focus.

DS received 4 offers from RG unis to study Comp Sci. He did A levels in Maths, F. Maths, Physics and Chem.
His PS was referred to in his interviews, but mainly because he had fantastic work exp and everyone wanted to know about it!

thewordfactory yes the reasons why they do so well interests me too. I did see however the ones with parents that had gone to Oxbridge followed suit and those whose parents might not have gone to uni were also less likely...

Word, you forget the vital fact that parents who are willing to pay are almost by definition invested (if you'll excuse the pun) in their child's education. That makes a massive difference: it may have the range of ability, but it won't have the range of (lack of) parental aspiration and (lack of) parental support for the school.

Absolutely Gemauve

word you say the ability spread is average but selection at private schools also works on income, which is linked to parental education which is a huge predictor of academic success. With small class sizes, kids of engaged parents (who also can afford tutoring) and the ability to boot out uncooperative kids, my results would be brilliant too.

I wonder what their FSM profile is?

Another thing that private schools tend to do more of is having well-resources co-curricular clubs (young engineers, programming etc) which they can help turn into relevant things for personal statements, and which keep motivation up for the main A level courses.

Plus they can use both departmental and careers/transfer staff to actively encourage applications for things like Smallpeice and Arkwright, plus the various activity days and short courses that many universities offer.

Littleham Computer Science isn't necessary for Maths & Computing degrees. Physics is always a useful addition for any Maths-based subject and may be necessary if the degree has a high electronics or mechanics component but isn't necessary for pure computer science.

If dc prefer Chemistry and Biology as sciences, they can be helpful and open up opportunities for cross-discipline modules if the uni offers something like that (for example cheminformatics), but a good humanities subject such as history, English, geography (not General Studies or Critical Thinking) will also be well regarded. Being able to write and communicate well is essential and humanities subjects give better preparation than most sciences and will often make a candidate stand out from the usual straight science-based candidates.

So in short, as long as Maths is one of the A-levels and the other A-levels are 'traditional' subjects, preferably including Physics for more maths/electronics/mechanics focused degrees, then dc will be fine.

(Full disclosure: DH is Programme Director for Computer Science at an RG uni)

Quantum chromodynamics would need maths, more maths, maths, and physics, I'd say, YesThisIsMe , plus a high tolerance for geeky not-v-funny acronyms like WIMPs and MACHOs,

That's very useful information IssyStark. My 14 year old had been interested in pursuing a career within Engineering but is now showing an interest in Computer Science, I'll save this thread for future reference.

Same - very useful to know all this when advising ds.

Thanks Issy ,Gemauve, spinoa and anyone else who I might have missed.

I have found an experienced Grade 8 music theory teacher so dd all set for being the only one in A Level music (thanks for the advice that she might need this). Physics might prove to be problematic - very high turnover.

Not all schools offer Comp Sci - ours (Science specialist grammar school) doesn't.

It is hard to know enough to advise a child, it just takes loads of research, easier now with the internet.

there are also social media groups were present students will tell you what people studied to get in wherever.

My daughter's music teacher is studying for her Bar exams and she didn't do Law A level and has a degree in History, as do most of the people she knows who are applying to the bar.

It's always worth talking to the admissions office, emailing them, asking as many questions as possible.