Sadness of Open Days

[Gemauve]

So on the stand this morning at 0905, I was approached by a charming woman and her keen, enthusiastic daughter. It's the first university they're visiting, in fact the first university that either of them has ever been to, but they're really looking forward to ... and they reel off a list of good places. Daughter really wants to do our subject, and has clearly checked out the top places.

And what A Levels are you doing?

Ah.

Well, you can't come here, and for what it's worth, we're slightly more relaxed than the other places you've named and I know that you won't be able to go to any of them to do our subject or anything even vaguely related. I didn't say "and on past experience from when we were even more relaxed to the point that we might have admitted you, you would almost certainly fail, and the last cohort where we did that less than 5% of them made it to finals". Sorry.

"My school said these subjects would be ideal".

They're catastrophically wrong. Did you look at any prospectuses before choosing your subjects? No. And off they went, their hopes destroyed by 0915.

What the fuck are schools playing at? Why do they let children who don't have middle class parents get into this situation?

She is thinking about doing English/media at uni

The English Lit will be good for that. Media Studies at A Level, not so recommended. Subjects such as Film, Media, Drama etc are actually very different at university than the A Level study. Partly because there are so few really good high-flying qualified teachers in those subjects.

I understand what you're saying, Gemauve, but she wouldn't do well in a MFL (should pass GCSE) and will, I'm sure, achieve highly in the mix of selected subjects.

She's really bright and switched on in certain areas and is decidedly average in others. I can't make her otherwise and wouldn't want her to change!

I want her to work hard, love learning and aspire to whatever uni suits her best.

If she's OK in Music and English Lit (not Lang or the combined Lit/Lang course) then that should be OK. Most really good universities for English require around AAA (although a lot of them will "relax" grades). If I were looking at a UCAS form with A in both Music & English Lit, the Media or RE at A would be acceptable. I think if there were not an A in English, it would be a bit trickier.

RE can actually be useful for English Lit. I don't have to do with admissions (so lurking with interest), but students who have RE and/or a decent knowledge of that subject are really welcome to me as a teacher, because so much English Lit relies on a bit of an understanding of Christianity and/or organised religion as a concept.

Oh I did retrain, Gemauve, so no it's not hindsight. I just wish I'd have done that first! I know from experience which gets me a job in my many moves and although it's only one qualification, I have done vastly different jobs with it all of which I have enjoyed found fulfilling and given me greater academic satisfaction than chemistry ever could.
I just wish I had had the sense to look beyond the degree, as there are many jobs which require a specific degree.

Elderly English Literature professors tend to lament that students these days don't know anything about the bible, and therefore find a lot of literature difficult because (along with Shakespeare) it's a massive source of allusion, metaphor and quotation.

Up the chimney, no it isn't their problem, just as the original poster's example showed. The school gave her qualifications which were not of use to her. I could imagine she could do lots of things but not what she wanted. Similar problem really. I think we should all look at the info earlier and not trust others or hope it "sorts itself out"

I only wish that were the qualifying criterion to be an elderly English Lit prof. I'd walk it.

Sadly, I'm not.

I'm afraid this thread makes me think Matthew 13:12.

Matthew 13:13 is also, sadly, just as relevant.

No you can only suggest ideas and hope people think about things you have said. Perhaps an idea will flourish within them and help them reach fulfilment. It's hard seeing young people make what you consider to be a mistake though, but we should always remember we are all different and giving too strong advice can sometimes, with the best will in the world be the wrong advice for them.

I wish as a society we offered more routes back into education, to change and retrain. I understand the OU fees have gone up dramatically. Some people make poor choices for themselves, through poor advice or not listening to to their heart as to what makes them tick. I dislike to think of that poor girl with her hopes dashed and hope that she can find a way to study what she desires. I managed to change routes, but not everyone is so fortunate.

The problem in the OP was that the girl had been given the wrong advice. The school had said ICT and Business studies would be 'ideal' (I think it was for computer science?) and evidently hadn't advised her to take maths. Well, there are places which don't require it, but AFAIK anywhere half-decent will, it takes about a minute to google if you have an idea what to look for. The girl and her mum didn't; whoever in the school she'd talked to really should have checked.

@HeadofHive: I'm not sure about nursing being good for PT working. Or anyway, a friend stopped nursing (she was a senior trainer by then) after her son was born because PT work simply wasn't on offer.

My entire dept works part time. In fact all of the health professions mums I know work part time. But that's only one side of it. I prefer it. Thank goodness for Google though these days...the amount of info available far surpasses what was available to me when I was making those choices. So it's a shame the girl relied on the school I agree. It's a minefield though. I wanted to use my own example to show similar stuff happens later too - having the wrong qualifications for whatever reason is an unhappy experience.

We definitely didn't rely on school for our daughter's choice, lots of googling open days, work experience etc!

I think we should encourage open days for unis when you are in year 11, at least you'd get up to date advice from the right people. I am shocked though at people telling us they had to make choices on A levels so early!

Oh and I'd love to see post results applications! Rather than the ridiculous system we have now. Predicted grades can be so off.

As someone who had been on MN for a while I knew there were tricky but important things to decide when it came to A Levels and keeping options open.

I tried to do some research myself but as DS hadn't and still hasn't decided exactly what he would like to do for a career other than professing a love of numbers I found a careers guidance place (in our case Adviza but I am sure there are many others) that did a Morrisby Profile and spent an hour chatting though careers with him, part of that was helping him choose A Levels for which he had the aptitude but that would also keep as many doors as possible open for him.

I am pretty able when it comes to research and understanding but when it comes to my own children it gets tricky - teenagers and 'what my mum says I should do' are not always things that go easily together.

So true odd boots!

Yes, OddBoots, you can lead a horse to water and all that...

I don't think universities would care to publish an official "we will take only these subjects for this course" guide because it does preclude them from accepting outliers. And they'd get thousands of carbon copy applicants. Some subjects would disappear altogether at A Level. As it is MFL are doing badly simply because in the world of AAA or higher offers no one who is not a very able (hidden native) speaker can risk dropping a grade. In t'olden days when A Level was much more literature based it was more of a level playing field for us franglais speakers.

Also, it's all very well to say we should follow our dreams, blah de blah, a la Michelle Obama, but at some point one has to get real. Not everyone is badly advised by school, many (most) pupils are simply not capable of physics, maths and chemistry. However badly I'd wanted to study Natural Sciences at Cambridge, there was no way ever I was going to be able to achieve this. Of course pupils shouldn't be lured/funnelled into rubbishy subjects, but some subjects are, rightly, beyond the capabilities of many. Ds says many of his classmates are struggling with A Level Maths, but it's been drummed into them that Maths Is King, Maths Opens Doors, Maths is Essential. I think there should be a Maths component of all A Level courses, like the old General Studies, so everyone could say, "Hey, I have continued with Maths," without having to possibly struggle with a full A Level they are not really suited to.

Not everyone is badly advised by school, many (most) pupils are simply not capable of physics, maths and chemistry.

And yet a far, far higher proportion of students at private schools appear to be. It would be very interesting to understand why.

gemauve some of that must be a result of selection?

That said, I agree that the expectations in some state schools have almost nothing to do with ability and everything to do with where the bar is set.

When I visit schools I'm often astonished at the lack of aspiration for the most able students and also the utter rubbish being peddled as 'fact'.

Smaller classes/more intensive teaching?

Private schools do better at GCSE due to selection and small class sizes, it's not a surprise that they do better at A-level too.

The results at my DS school are no surpirse really. Highly selective.

But DD's school is extremely interesting. No academic selection to speak of. Ability spread in line with national averages. Results fabulous.