Liberal Arts Degree - who why where and how?

[Dunlurking]

Does anyone know much about these degrees? Who they are best for, what they do for you as a person and a career basis, where would be good to try in terms of university and how to get in - how competitive they are?

Ds a bit undecided about History, his best subject, as his first degree, loves drama and is a good mathematician, (and doesn't want to throw a language into the mix, which some seem to have). ASs being taken are History, Maths, Theatre Studies and Physics (which he is determined to drop). Is a Liberal Arts degree a reasonable option to explore?

Thanks, Hully. I thought BASc was the qualification they got, not the name of the degree!! Looks very interesting.

Mominatrix- The danger with MN is that some people have the opportunity to proclaim their ignorance.
xHMM (BA)

I only know that Liberal Arts degrees are widely ridiculed in the USA and I would fret at my offspring who wanted that major in USA (even at Ivy League, although maybe fine do study in Europe). I don't think considering US situation is helpful because the comparison will never make LA degree look good.

One webpage I looked at said that it doesn't matter what you major in at Ivy League; it's a degree from Ivy League. Ivy League part is what matters. So that's why (said the webpage) Liberal Arts work fine from Ivy League. But outside Ivy League (so 99.5% of kids who get college degrees), the subject matters a lot, which is why Liberal Arts degrees (in USA) are something to avoid (said the webpage).

Just looked up the most recent degrees gained by two of my American cousins. Drumroll please!.... Business, Anthropology. When you go to ordinary universities, best not to risk degrees with dodgy reputations.

ltjkk- You can shut up now. A fair few of us on MN are from the US and actually know what we are talking about. You are just making yourself look stupid and, worse yet, misleading other people.

1. Liberal Arts degrees are not ridiculed. Because everyone who does an undergrad degree that is not STEM gets a BA.
2. You either misunderstood the webpage or it was written by an ignoramus .Some of the most competitive universities in the US are not Ivies. Stanford, CalTech, MIT, NYU, University of Chicago, Northwestern....not Ivies. Go to US News and World Reports College Guide and check out how many students apply for every place at those universities. Makes the Oxbridge competition look easy. Also look at state universities- UNC Chappel Hill, UC Berkley, Michigan, UCLA, UMass Amhurst- You'd need straight As in High School for those plus very high SATs and impressive extra curriculars.Employers look at your GPA and what your major was.Many would rather see a great GPA from a middle ranked uni rather than a crap GPA from Harvard.
3. Your cousins both have BA degrees.

This explains how the term 'liberal arts' can actually encompass lots of other specific degrees in the humanities . (maybe including Anthropology, even.)

So make sure you know what is going to appear on the degree certificate/records.

I despair.
The article refers to chosen undergrad 'majors'. I'll explain this again as you don't seem to understand-
1.Student applies to uni in the US (some higher ed institutions call themselves Colleges and some call themselves Universities. These are historic designations and all will have undergrad and grad). Uni accepts them on the basis of their grades, SATs/ACT, application essay, extracurriculars, interview etc. Student may say they have a passion for a particular subject but really uni wants all-rounders. Admission (unless to very specific courses, usually Bachelor of Fine Arts or Pre-Med) is to the uni. Not to a subject.

1. Student spends 2 years taking a wide range of courses including core curriculum.
2. Student chooses their major (declares). Most will need 50 credits or 10 couses in a particular department. English, Math, History, Anthropology etc.Student may also have a 'minor' of 5 courses in a subject.
3. Student collects diploma on graduation with their name, the name of the uni and either BA, BS or BFA. 'Major' is not written on the diploma.Student is well rounded and has enjoyed learning many subjects at a high level before deciding where to specialise.
4. Student applies for jobs or grad school (med, law, business or MA in their major or another) armed with the above diploma and their Grade Point Average (GPA). Employer will note which institution Student attended and GPA but will probably only ask about their major at interview.

I know Art History majors who work in museums and Art History majors who work in banking, History majors who went to law school and English majors who work in advertising and English majors got graduate degrees in social work. The article is a sad example of the anti-intellectualism that some on the American right wing espouse. That was the author's point. But you didn't get that either.

I too despair. lljkk, who do you know in the US who ridicules a Liberals Degree (fyi - there is no Anthropology degree or Business degrees - they would have received a BA/BS and majored in business studies or anthropology). There is nobody in my circle of friends/acquaintances (which includes people pretty high up in finance, medicine, law, business) who even thinks this. As I stated previously, these people were not just educated and/or recur fromjust Ivy League, but the many, many non-Ivy excellent universities and liberal arts colleges in the US.

I now question if you really are American, or if you are, what secured sect in America you grew up in as what horsemadmom and I are saying are fairly common knowledge.

Clearly not an American but I will hazard a guess that she is from the genus Mumsnetus Writescrapus. Whilst I do not have a degree in Anthropology, I find it easy to spot the species due to their reliance on rubbish they swallow on the internet and a complete inability to admit that they don't know what they're talking about.

In case any DC are interested, my DD has signed up to a BASc Taster Day at UCL on 8 July.

I don't think lljkk knows what she is talking about either. I went to a Little Ivy and graduated with a double major in History and reman and a minor in Music. It's complete madness to say that my degree is ridiculed in the US.

DS is aiming for an Ivy. He may or may not get there (and I'd actually prefer him to do undergrad in the UK and grad school in the US but that's a different argument), but I'd have no concerns with him graduating with a BA from the various colleges mentioned earlier.

German not reman.

What is a Little Ivy, Taz?

I'm impressed! Double major and a minor! When did you find time to sleep? I took a full load every semester and squeezed my history minor in by doing summer school and living in the library. What really surprises UK students is the humungous workload at US unis. My Oxbridge DH was floored when I told him what my schedual was. Two essays a week? Pah!

Leeds2 There's not a real list of Little Ivies because it's not an official group, but it's usually used in reference to some of the small and very competitive New England colleges like Williams, Amherst, Middlebury etc (I went to Bowdoin which is a very small college in Maine).

horsemadmum My music minor was a complete cheat in terms of studying! I played the violin very seriously in high school - the sort of 6 hours a day practicing and playing in a top orchestra kind of serious- and I'd developed relative perfect pitch. That meant I could get credit for all of the early theory classes without taking them and I breezed through the rest with minimal studying. I also got credit for playing in the college orchestra. I also spent most of my Junior year in Germany with a programme through Weslyan so that made the German major a lot easier to achieve! I did have to properly work for the History major.

Thanks, Taz. I had never heard that expression before! We looked round Williams and Amherst on a week long mad tour last year.

Still impressed, Taz! And Bowdoin is a really nice school. Had friends who went and loved it- not fond of the weather, though.
Leeds2- The UCL course looks really good. DD had a gander at that one but decided to get out of London. All the Little Ivies are great unis and the graduates I know feel a real affection for their time there and the friends they made. They're small enough to really know their students. I went to (Quiz question for Taz!) the oldest and largest private, secular foundation university in America. 29,000 undergrads when I was there and probably bigger now. It was very much sink or swim. But it did have the most enormous endowment and really top notch professors who all taught undergrads. This was pretty rare. If I had my time again, I'd go somewhere smaller with more school spirit and a bit of pastoral care.

horsemad - I'm scratching my head here...would you have attended a college in a very large southern state?

I went to a small 7 Sisters school just outside Boston, and chose it for undergrad over an Ivy because of the undergrad focus by the excellent teaching staff there (always in top 5 of the US News rankings). DS1 is just starting to think about where he would like to be for university, and he, like Taz's, is heavily leaning toward the US. DH does outreach for one of the big name Ivys, and he himself is encouraging DS to either choose a liberal arts college or one of the more undergraduate focused Ivys because the experience is much better. We both feel that to narrow down one's studies at such a young age is not an advantage in an era where flexibility is key, and a broad based international education is and advantage.

horsemad I'm going to take a stab at Penn? Only because I know it's both old and big. I'm stuck on the professors teaching undergrads at such a large school (or maybe that's an unfounded belief on my part...).

I've just waved my American visitors off so am back to catch up. My s-in-law was at Penn! She told me about the Divsion of Undergraduate Studies there or some name like that. I think this is the equivalent of Liberal Arts?? They have 2 years or so to do loads of different modules before they decide what they want to settle down to major in. She said it is perfect for undecided 18 year olds who don't know what to do with their lives.

All unis in America have an undergrad division (and a division of graduate studies) that allows you to take a range of courses in your first 2 years before you choose your major. That's what uni is in America.
Penn is very hard to get into. Fierce competition.

Thanks horsemad, I haven't looked at the US courses at all so didn't understand that.

Ds is now focusing down on those courses which would let him do some Theatre/Drama modules as well as History. I have no idea how helpful that will make his degree, but if he ends up with the Masters version, +/- a year abroad and it's from one of either Warwick, Exeter, Birmingham, Bristol or Leeds, does that sound worth doing in terms of emplyment prospects, anyone?

I vaguely remember the Music department talk at Birmingham in October 2014 mention a new Liberal Arts degree. If that went ahead, would just be finishing the first year, Quite high entry requirements IIRC.
The talk may still be on video on their site.

Thanks circular. Found some useful clips on the Birmingham Liberal Arts degree course section. They ask for A*AA, but so do alot of the others. Were you suggesting a video of a music department talk that mentions the Liberal Arts degree? Haven't found that yet.

Dunlurking, what a course asks for and what they get are slightly different. The AAA is in part a marketing tool, a flag to say "we are a course for academic students". Oxford also asks for AAA, but will be rejecting plenty who achieve more than that.

I don't know about the course you mention, however I think every economics course DS looked at had the same grade requirements. Some though would have accepted students with less. The question then is how do you work out which will be flexible and which won't. Tools are:

1. Looking at the entry standards in something like the Complete University Guide. These tell you the average UCAS tariff of students entering the course. You can then work out how much higher it is than the grade requirements.

1. Some courses will let you know the ratio of applicants to places. Given students can apply to five, anything more than five may suggest the course is in demand, as though students may apply to aspirational courses, they dont normally apply to courses they have no chance with. Obviously there are other things at play like Oxbridge is likely to be most people's first choice etc. However given students are moeny and Universities wont want to leave places unfilled, this gives you some idea.

1. Was the course in clearing last year?

You can also ask if they give credit for extra curricular activities or additional qualifications and how much weight they place on the interview. I assume this is quite possible for a course involving theatre studies.

Hi Needmoresleep. Thanks for that. It's helpful but there is a problem finding the stats as the courses at the unis ds is interested in are all new. Some started Sept 2013, so have no graduates yet. Some start Sept 2016 and don't even feature in HEAP 2016, which I am p** off about not impressed with as I paid £35 for the latest edition while ds wwas going through his "what do I want to do at university I have absolutely no idea" phase.

Warwick are asking the lowest, think it's AAB. Bristol and Durham want AAA, if I remember right. As you say, they want course to be prestigious but want to attract applicants so I think Warwick are undergrading (is that the term?) but will then probably chose applicants predicted much higher grades, having attracted them in the first place. Ds can't quite get his head round that. The concept that you are competing with all these applicants predicted higher grades, even though your predicted grades may be OK for the course. He may have to ditch the idea of a Liberal Arts degree altogether if he isn't predicted AAA......