Oxbridge - someone hand me a grip please

[windowtree]

Right I could NC for this but am being brave .. please be nice and help me get some perspective!

Normally I am very chilled and laid back and happy for DD to make her own choices (always been good ones as far as I know ;)) DH and I are on hand to offer advice but know she has to make her own decisions and that's what life is about.

Anyway she is wanting to apply for uni entry 2015 but she outright refuses to think of Oxbridge and it is making me frustrated. I know that nothing is guaranteed but she would stand as good a chance as any other applicant but seeems to have adopted DH's "inverted snobbery."

When I see threads like the Oxbridge one I am irrationally cross with DD because I think she should "give it a go" (the application) - however she just feels it will be full of privileged folk and no one down to earth.

At the end of the day it's her choice - but as a parent I feel like she is missing an opportunity - though can't put my finger on what.

Please help me deal with this stupidity (mine not hers!!)

That's exactly how I felt when I was 17 and looking at Oxbridge from my local comp. Ended up at St Andrews which was full of over-privileged idiots. I'm sure Oxford or Cambridge would have been much better from what I've heard from people who actually went there. If she goes to an open day and meets some students she might get a different impression?

As an Oxbridge graduate I can tell her she'd be wrong about that but as someone who did a D.Phil. at Oxford rather than a B.Sc. so my college (Wolfson - a graduate college) consisted of a lot of scientists and as many oversea students as Brits. In addition being an Oxbridge graduate will add a frisson to your job application to every job that nowhere else in England will offer. It will open doors to certain jobs that no other University can compete with.

I can also say to you I'm not entirely convinced the tutorial system at Oxford is all that. If it is you and some arse and nobody else doing the same subject in your college you have 3 years of regular meetings with that arse trying to get yourself heard. Not every tutor is world class, DH did tutoring (as a DPhil student) when we were students there, he was so bad both students fell asleep in a tutorial once. Oxbridge rests on its laurels and the teaching there is not necessarily as good as other universities.

elfo - very interesting as she was looking at St Andrews!
Alpaca - she wants to study English Literature and History

Oxford and Cambridge are so big you can find absolutely everything there.

However, the important thing is that she should really want to go there. Applying because she feels she should is liable to be a real waste of time.

I agree Liara - so how do I get a grip?! Tis me being silly not DD unfortunately

I don't know, I'm not massively gripped in general.

But I think that trying to accompany her in her choice process without trying to influence it might help you come to terms with whatever she decides - and her enthusiasm when she finds the place she does 'click' with might be contagious.

Well you know she's wrong but what can you do - DD1 said that Cambridge was full of weirdos who were "up themselves" Her french teacher really encouraged her to apply but she changed her mind about languages and went off to study Biology at UEA instead.

Each university has a different feel and when they find somewhere that is a good fit for them it is very exciting. DD1 graduated a year ago and absolutely loved her time at university so it was a good choice for her.

I was also like this at 17 and actually turned down a place at Cambridge (I know, I know). I do regret it now. Saying that I think the course you do amd enjoying living in the place you are studying at is more important. Happy, well supported people get firsts and 2:1's, people doing courses that don't really "fit" or inspire them, living in miserable conditions, don't.

Also, have you seen the new world uni rankings published today? Cambridge is joint second, apparently, fair enough, but Oxford "only" fifth. Some if the London units above it are just as, if not more, prestigious these days and would perhaps satisfy the inverse snobbery test.

But forago league table positions come and go - reputations last decades - so i imagine ox or cam could slip down 20 places and it still wouldn't make any difference to how they are perceived by the world.

On English Lit, OP, she should choose carefully which course would suit her - Oxford and Cambridge offer very different course content and she may find she hates one and loves the other.

Providing your DD has the requisite grades and AS UMS scores to make applying worthwhile, what can she lose by applying? its one slot from 5 on the UCAS form and actually going and having an interview will allow her to make an informed choice. She can still reject an offer if she prefers somewhere else - but would be doing it from a position of knowledge, rather than prejudice.

Well, it's not full of privileged folk. I've seen a much, much less varied social demographic at other universities. However, Oxbridge looks snobby because they still tend to do traditions like formal hall, or wearing gowns a lot - these are just window-dressing, but if you hate that (as maybe your DD does), it feels a bit odd.

But if she feels it is, it's hard to shift that. My brother did exactly the same - mum and dad pushed him like mad, made me drag him round to a Cambridge open day, etc. He just didn't like either place.

He went to Leeds, had a brilliant time, made some great friends and met his partner there, and ended up with a good first. He's now just finished a MA and is on track for a merit or a distinction at LSE. Of course, I can't know what he'd have done if he'd bowed to the pressure and applied to Oxbridge - he might very well have got in, but I doubt he would have enjoyed it.

Oxbridge is really different from everywhere else. It's not like living in a big city - both cities are dominated by students.

She cannot study English Lit and History at Cambridge, btw. She could only do Part I in one and try to transfer to Part II in the other. Cambridge don't really offer joint honours. Cambridge English is also not the most deeply historical English degree out there, which is worth knowing.

Oxford English is heavily, heavily language-based, to my mind. There are plenty of places that do Lit with a more historical slant than either place, I think.

Parents trying to get their kids into Oxbridge like to think that is the case Becks, and don't get me wrong, a degree from Cambridge or Oxford is certainly going to look good, but other institutions
are just as well thought of/useful now. For example, the banks that I work for in the city want STEM grads from Inperial, UCL and Cambridge, not Oxford. I am told the situation is similar for Law, but with different institutions up there with with Oxford.

The problem is that most parents knowledge is 20 years put of date. Maybe an oxbridge degree is still require for MI5, I wouldn't know, but it certainly isn't essential to work in the City anymore IMO (if indeed it ever was)

Your dd has made a reasonable decision. She doesn't want Oxbridge. Fine. She will doubtless get several offers from decent places, an excellent degree and have a happy life.

She doesn't want Oxbridge.

It's as simple as that and I think you should just let it go. Places for English are hugely competitive there and the application process is stressful. Most people apply because they like the teaching style, they like the buildings, their schools and parents tell them too, they are high achievers and it's what you do......your dd has the independence of mind to think beyond that and say what she wants. Good for her.

God, tell her not to go to St Andrews if she doesn't want to hang out with 'privileged folk' (Why does she think Will and Kate went there?!)

She could come to Newcastle!

DS2 had the inverted snobbery thing about Oxford. His teachers & I thought he could do well there, & he grudgingly applied, & did get an interview.

But he went with all his preconceptions intact, disliked everybody else at the college he was allocated to, (he didn't even do any research into colleges so did an open application), had interviews that were mediocre at best &, unsurprisingly, wasn't offered a place.

So that was a waste of a choice . If your DD is just as adamant she will probably also waste a choice, but has she even visited either city? DS2 did go to the Oxford summer open days - with his closed mind - but with friends at both Oxford & Cambridge has since visited properly & is a little rueful now...

Oxbridge attracts a reasonably mixed cohort. Certainly the bursaries and grants on offer make it a good bet for anyone who might otherwise struggle financially.

Certianly more mixed than some other universities...

My daughter is currently completing her UCAS form.

It's a tricky process as one the one hand as parents we can be asked for advice and/or transport to open days. And there'll obviously be issues around financial support for children in Higher Education.

On the other hand they're the ones who are growing up and doing the studying. I think it really is their choice. (And if some well-known university does not offer the subject or combination of subjects which the student wants to study, it's hard to see how it can be a good choice.)

I know I've got opinions, but they're partly based on my own assumptions/prejudices and the way the world was when I was at university. Maybe there's also the sense that if our children go somewhere that's particularly prestigious and/or competitive that reflects well on us at parents. (It's as if our children are accessories like cars or houses, by which we mark our status in the world.)

Oxbridge is still massively dominated by independent school students.

Windowtree I feel your pain but can I just second what Forago said about Oxbridge and the City. I work for a City firm and they've recently just asked for volunteers to attend various campuses to recruit what they consider to be the best candidates for training contacts.

Unsurprisingly they do visit Oxford, Cambridge and London but also high up on their list of desirable universities are Durham, York, Warwick, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bristol and a couple of others I can't quite remember. There is definitely life outside of Oxbridge.

Biscoff there are about half and half at Oxbridge. Cambridge actually does slightly better than Oxford with more state schooled students than privately schooled students.

Some other universities do worse.

Where does she want to go?

Can you do English and History at Oxford. I don't remember anyone doing this combo. There are lots of good universities. Some will be better than Oxbridge depending on her area of interest. She may also not want the 'college' approach and want a bigger university feel.

One of Oxbridge's major advantages is teaching time, esp in small groups.

Most of the big universities - even RG ones - offer lecture/seminar time barely in double figures for humanities/arts subjects, & tutorials in ones & twos are out of the question. That's something to bear in mind (& important questions to ask at open days)

I'd urge your DD not to turn down Oxbridge because she thinks they'll be full of over-privileged idiots called Tristan and Camilla (apologies to anyone with a Tristan or a Camilla who is neither an idiot nor over-privileged).

Sure, there are over-privileged idiots knocking around the place. But there are are also lots of people there from very 'normal' ordinary backgrounds - I know, I was one. I went there on full grant back in the days when full grant existed and had the time of my bloody life.

On the other hand, if she doesn't want to apply because neither uni does the degree course she wants, then fair enough: that's a reasonable decision.

Which universities do worse?