Advice on nasty bullying - first year halls of residence

[Portlligat]

Hi everyone,

I've signed up as I've been reading some of the threads and like the honest, sensible advice generally on offer. (I've also had my speel disappear into the ether once already, so fingers crossed this works!)

Bit of background. DD1 - introverted, intelligent, struggles socially. Has just taken up a place at a prestigious conservatoire somewhere in Europe studying music. (I'm being vague as I don't want any place or person recognised.) She's finally found her niche in the world - loads of nerdy music students with whom she can ramble on about the wonders of John Cage (don't geddit!) counterpoint (don't understand it!) and opera (hate it!) and actually get people enthusing back at her, either in agreement or intellectual disagreement. She's even got over her terror of feeling not worthy of her place and worrying that everyone else will be much cleverer/better taught etc. than she is and is more than coping with the academic side of things, saying that it is the perfect place for her and beyond anything she ever imagined. Hoorah!

Oh but there's always that sticky old ointment and that pesky old fly - though in this case it's more of a hornet. This particular music college also offers courses for students studying other subjects (connected with theatre) and in her student hall of residence flat there is one such girl. This non-music student girl has taken an intense dislike to my DD and her behaviour is verging on the criminal. She complains that my DD spends far too much time in her room studying and when she does emerge she talks about music all the time...........well duh! She actually asked DD if she was autistic (she's not, but so what if she were?) and said that she objects to spending £130 a week to live with someone like her and that she should f* off and live on her own.

DD has now spent a week unable to eat properly as she is having to sneak into the kitchen late at night when this girl isn't around as she comes in tells her to f* off and get out of her space. (This is a top-rated establishment - I could reel off scores of famous names who studied there. You're never safe!)

DD went to student affairs who turned out to be Sweet Old Counsellor Man who spent an hour asking "so how does that make you feel?" Um. Take a guess!!

As to the others in the flat? Too scared to say anything to this nasty piece of work. One of them and DD are fast becoming friends and he has told her privately that he's there for her if she wants to talk but doesn't want to cause a scene by speaking publicly. Sounds harsh, but I would imagine my DD would be much the same. These introverted studious young people find such situtations extremely difficult.

So yes, she could ask to move flats - but she has made such a good friend (unusual for her, sadly) and anyway, it's disrupting and this girl will go on and victimise someone else I don't doubt - in fact DD has actually said that she doesn't want to move as she knows this girl will start on XX (abovementioned friend) and thinks he wouldn't cope............like she will? Very magnanimous!

Any advice gratefully received. Writing this has at least stopped me writing to the institution in question and naming this girl! Should I let her sort it out herself (she's very upset and says it's starting to affect her studies) or should I give her advice? What advice? (So far I've suggested that she doesn't get into any discussions with this girl and that she wears an ipod in the kitchen if she's alone with her - though this girl hurls abuse even when the others are there, so that won't really help.)

Help please!

Your DD needs to complain to the top levels of the University. Phone her Senior Tutor/Pastoral Tutor, phone the person in charge of allocating rooms, phone the VP, phone everyone she can think of.

Priobably will be more effective if it all comes from her rather than your calls.

If it is affecting your DD's studies then she needs to talk to her tutor, or any sympathetic tutor on her course. They can give her on the spot advice and help her fight her corner.

She needs o move this one on and get some proper help. The marshmallow pastoral guy just doesn't get it. She does not need to stand for such ignorance and young miss can be the one who is moved if she doesn't want to pay £130 a week to be there.

It is difficult to give good advice without knowing the country at least, as pastoral care is very different in different places. Whilst bullying in the UK is taken very seriously, this is not the case everywhere.

At the very least, she needs to keep a factual record of everything that is happening, and who witnessed any events.

If this student is verbally aggressive, discretely recording this on a phone and showing the recording to the accommodation manager might ensure they take the situation seriously.

It's like magic here! You go walk the dog and when you come back Voila! 2 replies! Thank you for taking the time nomorecrumbs and mummytime. Sensible talk. She doesn't seem to have a pastoral tutor - she has a one-to-one tutor for her main subject, but it's such early days (5 weeks in and 3 weeks with her tutors) that she doesn't feel able to talk to him, or any other tutor about this really. She's said that she's going to go through the handbook and see what it says about such extreme situations.

Nomorecrumbs - I know that's what she should do but there's no way she'd manage to do that. Quiet, shy, studious little thing - she actually almost feels it's her fault - I spend my whole time telling her she doesn't deserve to be treated like this.

But I am interested in the fact that neither of you has said she should move, I wasn't expecting that. Good. I hope she can sort this out without moving too.

Is there a student union? I would get your DD to record bitchface on her phone next time she starts and then either take it to SU, or chaplaincy, or try a different person at student affairs. If she had clear evidence she may feel more confident to go to tutor. Or maybe friend would go with her as witness, even if friend feels unable to speak when the bullying is going on.

Actually, that's not what I would do. I would tell DD to tell the flatmate to fuck off back to whatever witches coven she came from or DD will piss in her bed. While she's in it. But that's because I'm common :)

Can she ask advice from her subject tutor as to who would be the best person to approach on this? Even if the tutor isn't able to help directly, if it's starting to affect her work then it would probably be useful if they knew anyway.

Sounds like a horrible situation to be in.

Noteveryday I love you! (even if you are common!!!!!) Thanks for making me laugh..........and your advice is unnervingly similar to DD's little sister's who actually suggested violence!!!

Creamteas I'm being vague as the establishment is so well known and I don't want it recognised. The problem isn't really about witnesses or being believed (though I do love the phone recording suggestions) but actually getting DD to manage to report this witch.....she would find that so hard, despite what she's doing to her.

I also think of course she shouldn't move.

I know you want to be vague - but is this a country where bullying will be taken seriously? I think that would make a difference to how I would respond.

I think the ignoring the witch via using an iPod is a good one. She may be the type of bully who backs off if she gets no response. I think the advice to tell her to find the strength to tell the bully to fuck right off and once she gets there fuck off again (like she means it) is even better.

Failing that I'll send ds3. He cannot abide bullying and at 7 stood up to the boy twice his size who was making ds2's life misery! She needs a friend like that.

Of course you have to give advice your dd can follow so while I think you should call on her to stand up for herself (in the ways above either by not caring, or dishing it out herself), if it's a country where bullying is taken seriously talking to her tutor might be easier for your dd. Or she could go back to the ineffectual wimpy counsellor and ask him how she goes about reporting the bully.

saintlyjimjams you must be so proud of your ds3.

I believe that, if reported, the bullying would be taken extremely seriously by this establishment as they have a phenomenally good reputation. It's about DD finding the strength to do it. And you've given so many suggestions to help her - thank you all so much.

Yes, maybe the sweet marshmallow wimpy counsellor can guide her on how to go about reporting this witch. As to her backing off if not getting a response - sadly I doubt it as others have reported back to DD that bitchface has ranted about her to them. And it's not ranting that she's left the place in a mess or anything like that - it's ranting that she works all the time and goes on about music and doesn't want to party. This was a 'quiet' flat requested for on application. (Quiet in quotes as the cacophony coming from the various instruments makes it anything but!!)

The mix is always hard in student flats and you really never know who will turn up. My DD moved into a flat where she straight away got on very well with 2 of the boys partly because all three were interested in partying, but I hasten to add all three realise it takes all sorts and were ready to include others / consider their wishes. They too had a piece of work like the one you describe, attentions seeking, controlling, it didn't take them long to realise she was a compulsive liar, and a thief, and wrecked the baking trays my daughter took with her making hash browns. She was also a stoner. They did their best to get along with her whilst trying to take avoiding action to distance themselves from the worst of it, going out when she was in, staying in when she was out etc. so that eventually she got a (poor victim of a) boyfriend which released the pressure on them. Near the end of the year she started making arrangements to live with them the following year at which point the boys were going to cave in rather than have a confrontation but my DD stood up to her. The last weeks were very difficult, she hacked her social media, spread rumours and gossip etc and was generally very difficult but then she disappeared early and they have not seen her since.

She was not however bullying them from the start, just a pain to have around, and they are not introverted.

I suggest your DD goes on a multi pronged approach. Firstly bullies do tend to back off if they don't get a reaction. Secondly if the rest of the flat are not party animals then this madam is going to get her kicks elsewhere, perhaps a get a boyfriend, and that might take the pressure off. If you look at it from her point of view she expected ?cool luvvies? and got geeks so perhaps she is taking it out on your DD. Your DD should develop her relationship with her allies, eventually they will feel they have no alternative but to defend her. And pursue any formal channels she can, keep a written record, make recordings. She may at some point do something that your DD can discretely inform on. My DD did always have the way out of informing the university authorities about the drugs. My younger daughter has just emerged from five school years where there werea few of these witches around and one targeted her and to be honest putting some distance between you and your bully by whatever means is the only real long term solution, she has just moved schools and is a different person, happy, lots of friends and not afraid to be herself. The only good thing about it is they are better equipped to handle the next one who comes along. Good luck.

By the way if your DD is overseas do you think there could be some cultural misunderstanding here, an element at least. I have been an expat and some cultures do have a very blunt way of putting things, and a sense of humour that can be easily taken the wrong way. I had a swedish friend and sometimes she was so outspoken and tactless that it took your breath away until you got to know her and realised it wasn't meant nastily, she was just stating facts!

Not sure about proud - ds3 just has a very clear sense of right and wrong. I swear he is my grandmother reincarnated - she was always campaigning and feeding up waifs and strays before sending them on their way. It doesn't always do him any favours (bit black and white) but is useful if someone needs a helping hand standing up to someone (have also seen him have a go at someone who was being mean to their own younger sister - completely called him on it).

I do hope she can get it sorted. It's horrible when one person starts to affect everything. I did fall out with one bloke in postgrad accommodation (after I reflected him he turned nasty) & it was very horrible and unpleasant.

By rejected him I mean rejected his attempt to snog me

Shootingatpigeons you make a good point about culture but it is absolutely not the case here. Whilst there are many different nationalities at this conservatoire (something my DD absolutely loves!) the witch in question actually heralds from the next county to ours! And yes, she might have expected cool luvvies, but why then did she apply to a place that overwhelmingly predominantly and famously produces musicians? (in all guises, not just performers.) It makes no sense. But yes I agree that, one way or another, she needs to get away from this girl.

Jimjams, my dd2 is also my grandmother reincarnated!!!

Anyway. DD hasn't seen the witch today at all and I'm hoping that she goes to get her dinner soon whilst two of the others are around. Oh the worry! Thanks for all the understanding support.

Second, third, fourth the advice that she needs to talk to someone. Indeed, several people. Her closest tutor, and also people from Student Accommodation. And the Student Union, or student guild. Or what about the Student Health Service? Anywhere to get a record and start to report the pattern of abuse.

And she needs to keep a diary of every incident of abuse. As well as recording it. And tell your DD to write down EVERYTHING, even apparently trivial things: bullying works mostly because each incident is small, trivial, or explicable within the situation. The bullying is the larger picture which emerges from all the little things. I specify writing as well as recording as then your DD can make a note of everything, not just the bits when she manages to flick a switch on her phone or iPod.

And although this advice may be very hard to put into action she should NOT sneak into the kitchen late at night etc. She has every right to be there. She should behave normally for her. If there is a confrontation, she could just ignore. I hate confrontation (I think it's a very English trait) so I tend just to turn away from in my face abuse, rather than argue back.

Your OP made my blood boil, the behaviour of the other student sounds utterly unforgivable.

And how lovely to hear that an undergrad likes to talk about John Cage! I try to get mine to talk about Merce Cunningham and Robert Wilson, but I have to push them ...

I would say that logging each incident in a diary is a very good idea.

Portillgat, I've sent you a PM (private message). Click on the wee red envelope sat the top of the page.

At risk of suggesting stalking, if Ms Witch is from the next county do you have means of finding out whether she has form for this sort of thing? My DD and the flatmates were able to find out some background from schoolmates that confirmed the behaviour they observed was nothing new I would add if she has in any way been involved in the stage brat world then my DD was briefly involved and I witnessed some very odd egotistical and self absorbed behaviour, and that was just the Mothers. I used to hide in a corner with a good book.

Oh I think that's a bit unfair shooting - ds2 is a bit of a stage brat & the professional production companies are very hot on behaviour. If a child is found to be involved in any bullying behaviour they're out - and they're very clear on that from before the kids set foot in the theatre. I can't imagine them tolerating any sort of bad behaviour - there are plenty of other kids. At least that's what I tell ds2 and he realises that (ds2 is verywell behaved anyway - I'd never allow ds3 to audition for anything as he's not!). Recently ds2 was invited back to do a role again in a different theatre - but as I pointed out to him his previous behaviour backstage would have been checked out first of all.

Amateur productions might be a bit different - but in my experience of professional ones the production companies are strict & expect professional behaviour. And they're very clear on that.

Stage mothers can be a nightmare (although really not always) and my husband & dad have some funny stories from auditions. But I think production companies recognise that as well as any big professional production very much keeps the mothers at the stage door.

Sorry had to stand up for the stage kids there - there is no way my stage brat would be involved in something like the above - he has been bullied himself & is quite a shy soul in a group of kids.

I agree it would be worth checking out if she has previous - just because it might give the OP dd's some confidence and remind her it's not her - it's just this girl.

Oh heavens! We're on to performing children and, more embarrassingly, performing children's mothers.........looks around and raises hand guiltily!!!

DD2 is a performing child (though is shortly to give it all up as she wants to be a doctor........that's my girl!!) and is the most unbratty, lovely, happy, popular well balanced teenager on the planet.....honestly it's true!!! It's panto season coming up - this will be her 6th and she does about 25 performances throughout the Xmas period. She absolutely loves it, but looming GCSEs will put paid to any more after this year sadly.

DD1 has just texted to say that she managed to enter the kitchen for breakfast with Bitchface already in there. When she sat down BF actually got up from the table with her bowl and stood eating by the sink. DD immediately put in her ipod as she sensed verbals coming. Yay! But she says she felt bad doing this........oh dear. All you lovely people telling me she should report this girl........I KNOW! But I don't know where she'll find the strength to manage it.

Shootingpigeons - I've already stalked the facebook page - which looks like she'd be more at home in Magaluf than at a conservatoire. (apologies to any Magalufians reading this!)

Upthechimney DD absolutely loves anything unusual and particularly adores world music and weird instruments - she even mentioned a weird Israeli thingamejiggydooodah in her interview that one of the panel hadn't heard of. This is her dream come true being where she is and, apart from the obvious problem in the flat, is absolutely loving this world. (I haven't yet heard about the other two composers you mentioned - but I shall ask her next time I get the chance.)

I have to say I am immensely touched and feel quite emotional at the support on here. Next time I get the chance to speak to DD properly I will sound her out on keeping a record of incidents (there was one last night - won't go into it now) and maybe reporting her. I know it's the right thing to do, but she won't want to cause any trouble.

(Note to self. Must learn how to use smilies. Does anyone know if there's a way of editing a post once it's gone out? I hate it if I spot typos!)

Did putting on her iPod work? If so tell her to keep doing it and look bored if bitchface starts. Tell her not to worry about being rude, it isn't being rude to ignore someone who is extremely unpleasant to you.

The other thing she could do is just leave the room each time bitchface starts on her. If she can calmly say something like 'I'm happy to talk to you if you can bring yourself to be pleasant but I'm not going to get into a row with you' and walk out bitchy will find herself mouthing off to an empty room. Meanwhile iPod on every time she starts muttering to drown that out.

Enjoy panto season :) I've always been quite relieved that ds2 has never gone for panto, the number of performances & drop offs and pick ups in a short space of time makes my head spin at the thought of it He's currently working in a studio where I get a bit of say over dates/times and get to sit around drinking tea & reading books/magazines (parent chaperone perks) while he does his stuff. Perfect job!

Nah you can't edit once posted. It drives me mad as well!

I would second the suggestion of logging incidents.

It might just be first term bravado which will settle down.

Do they have a bullying policy? UK universities do.

saintly and portligat I am talking west end and though I agree that they are hot on the behaviour of the performers, this was the same DD who was being bullied at school and it was to build up her confidence and through being convinced it would be a positive experience that I agreed in the first place but the behaviour of some of the mothers and frankly the attitude of some of their offspring in auditions and outside the stage door (and the clique associated with one stage school) that convinced me that they really are going to grow up with problems. Of course the parts were not exclusively cast from those children but they are there, a distinct subculture. I live in London so playing fast and lose with your child's ego to satisfy your vicarious ambition is far from confined to the stage brat world though, certainly a root cause, along with some staggeringly self indulgent parental behaviour, of the exclusive behaviour amongst the madams in my DDs year, they went to Malia, but I expect the Facebook pics would be similar. These bullies are often building up damaged self esteem at the expense of others which is why I mentioned it.