Advice on nasty bullying - first year halls of residence

[Portlligat]

Hi everyone,

I've signed up as I've been reading some of the threads and like the honest, sensible advice generally on offer. (I've also had my speel disappear into the ether once already, so fingers crossed this works!)

Bit of background. DD1 - introverted, intelligent, struggles socially. Has just taken up a place at a prestigious conservatoire somewhere in Europe studying music. (I'm being vague as I don't want any place or person recognised.) She's finally found her niche in the world - loads of nerdy music students with whom she can ramble on about the wonders of John Cage (don't geddit!) counterpoint (don't understand it!) and opera (hate it!) and actually get people enthusing back at her, either in agreement or intellectual disagreement. She's even got over her terror of feeling not worthy of her place and worrying that everyone else will be much cleverer/better taught etc. than she is and is more than coping with the academic side of things, saying that it is the perfect place for her and beyond anything she ever imagined. Hoorah!

Oh but there's always that sticky old ointment and that pesky old fly - though in this case it's more of a hornet. This particular music college also offers courses for students studying other subjects (connected with theatre) and in her student hall of residence flat there is one such girl. This non-music student girl has taken an intense dislike to my DD and her behaviour is verging on the criminal. She complains that my DD spends far too much time in her room studying and when she does emerge she talks about music all the time...........well duh! She actually asked DD if she was autistic (she's not, but so what if she were?) and said that she objects to spending £130 a week to live with someone like her and that she should f* off and live on her own.

DD has now spent a week unable to eat properly as she is having to sneak into the kitchen late at night when this girl isn't around as she comes in tells her to f* off and get out of her space. (This is a top-rated establishment - I could reel off scores of famous names who studied there. You're never safe!)

DD went to student affairs who turned out to be Sweet Old Counsellor Man who spent an hour asking "so how does that make you feel?" Um. Take a guess!!

As to the others in the flat? Too scared to say anything to this nasty piece of work. One of them and DD are fast becoming friends and he has told her privately that he's there for her if she wants to talk but doesn't want to cause a scene by speaking publicly. Sounds harsh, but I would imagine my DD would be much the same. These introverted studious young people find such situtations extremely difficult.

So yes, she could ask to move flats - but she has made such a good friend (unusual for her, sadly) and anyway, it's disrupting and this girl will go on and victimise someone else I don't doubt - in fact DD has actually said that she doesn't want to move as she knows this girl will start on XX (abovementioned friend) and thinks he wouldn't cope............like she will? Very magnanimous!

Any advice gratefully received. Writing this has at least stopped me writing to the institution in question and naming this girl! Should I let her sort it out herself (she's very upset and says it's starting to affect her studies) or should I give her advice? What advice? (So far I've suggested that she doesn't get into any discussions with this girl and that she wears an ipod in the kitchen if she's alone with her - though this girl hurls abuse even when the others are there, so that won't really help.)

Help please!

I haven't yet heard about the other two composers you mentioned - but I shall ask her next time I get the chance

Oh Merce Cunningham is a choreographer & long time partner of Cage, and Wilson is a theatre director, very much influenced by both Cunningham & Cage. Cunningham's dance technique looks like nothing, but is actually quite difficult (I had the aches to prove it).

Oh, forgot to add Shooting, Miss Witch is not studying performance in any shape or guise........which is a shame as I'd be already booking my slot in the Daily Heil to give the lowdown on her the minute she got famous!

And to those worried about stage children's behaviour (having been one myself, and still near the industry) -- if they want adult careers, they will have to get over themselves. Word spreads if you don't play nicely with others. Unless you are once-in-a-generation talented.

Growing up in the theatre is a very good way to grow up, and teaches discipline and hard work, and the tough knowledge that effort doesn't always equal achievement (something that undergraduates also need to know).

Embarrassed icon thingy! They're not composers. Oopsie!!

Oh. I thought I was answering Chimney's post about Merce Cunningham and Wilson. Sorry. Still getting used to this site.

And Chimney. I completely agree with you about the discipline. DD2 has had stong dance training from age 3 and when she collects her Nobel prize for brain surgery in 40 years time (!?) her dance teacher will be top of her list of people who inspired her. (Sadly, I suspect, before even moi!)

Could you help arrange for a friend or DD2 to go and stay for a weekend or something? It does help to have, and be seen as, a person who has friends and allies rather than a lone figure the bully can pick on. And if home truths happen to get uttered during that weekend, so much the better.

I performed this service for my little sister when her Uni house share got a bit fraught. In the end, I didn't say much, it was just the 'She's not alone, she's got people around her who would gladly tear you limb from limb' vibe I gave off that helped to change the dynamics of the situation a bit.

No problems, Portlligat -- it's fairly specialised knowledge, and standard suburban dance training rarely gets to Cunningham technique: I encountered it in my 30s.

Eldritch I love your idea - though not easily pulled off as I think you're supposed to book a room in a spare flat for visitors and DD2 is about as scary as a pantomime cow! But I may work on a variation to the theme.

Shooting - is there a thread somewhere about performing children's mothers? Oh don't start me! The stories I could tell! But we are not all like that - I am so relieved that my DD2 wants to go into medicine, not performing (though she has murmured something about going to Cambridge so she can join the Footlights! Gulp! Why not aim higher darling? You're under selling yourself!!!)

And to be clear. DD1 is not studying a performance aspect of music though she plays various instruments.

Reading through this and the other thread about 1st years settling - I am absolutely staggered at how many problems these kids are having. I remember this as a wonderful time - our halls of residence in my day were not separated into flats - we had 3 floors with about 20 rooms on each floor so there didn't seem to be this problem of not finding someone who wanted to party/not party/walk to lectures with/watch Corrie with etc. etc. Yes, of course there were people we weren't so keen on but I honestly can't recall one incident of victimisation. I wonder if they're all expecting a bit too much too soon?

One of my best friends at Uni had it. She was the only overseas student on a floor of boorish Sloanes. They were awful to her, and she moved to another hall where she was very happy.

Well done to your dd for having coped with eating in the kitchen and ignoring bitchqueengirl. Whilst I absolutely understand the visceral need to go over there and sort the nasty girl it out, if your dd can overcome this by herself, it will give her confidence a huge boost.

I am absolutely staggered at how many problems these kids are having

Quite frankly, conditions are far far easier, things clearer, and procedures more transparent -- all to the extent of being as close as dammit to spoon-feeding.

This generation has not been raised with enough resilience, I'm afraid, and with hovering parents who have bought into the "consumer is right" culture. Even for education which is not actually a consumer goods/service.

Massive generalisations, I know, but I've been in this game for 25 years and we teach and support undergraduates better than ever before. To the extent of our endangering our own health, families, and work/life balance.

Thatcher's children and grandchildren, I'm afraid.

Ds1 started at university last year, and ds2 went this year, and both have been in flats (with 7 others, in ds1's case, and 4 others in ds2's), and it seems to have worked out very well indeed for both of them - they made friends with their flatmates very quickly (apart from one chap in ds1's flat who never came out of his room, even when invited several times by ds1 and others). Ds1 was sharing with boys and girls - and that seemed to work very well - I wonder if single-sex girls' flats can get a bit intense - and ds2 is in an all boys flat which is also working well.

Completely contradicting what I said about your dd working things out for herself, I wish she were in either of the two universities my dses are at, because I would send them round to take her out, or to sit in her kitchen with her, drinking coffee and giving the hairy eyeball to any bitchqueengirls who wanted to give her a hard time generally being supportive.

port we have a thread in extra-curricular for the parents of performing children/children who want to (or already) go to stage/dance/music school or college (alhtough I've recently name changed so I don't think this new nick is represented in the thread!). It's a very nice friendly place. Come join us.

upthechimmney As you may recall from previous threads I agree with you on the parents with a sense of entitlement and closeted offspring but I also think Thatchers children have brought up a generation where you do find a lot of DC who do not have respect for others. Maybe it is because I grew up in a provincial city and then went to another provincial city to uni but whilst people clearly found their own social groups there was a respect for difference. No one was going to give a DC grief because they didn't go clubbing. That was certainly the experience of my DD in her year, that if you were not prepared to go and drink yourself (and worse) senseless (and worse) in the recreation ground at 14 (and this was at one of the most selective private girls' schools in the country) then it was open season for being name called "the Virgin Mary" and all sorts of nastiness. Those girls are still sat in the sixth form common room having colonised a set of chairs playing gangsta music (though you have to be blonde and middle class to be included) and hissing snake at anyone who dares to sit in their chairs or ask them to turn it down. They all have sad back stories too, obviously wealthy parents but there is a reason they are attention seeking. It is just one gang who turned up in one school in one year (older DDs year were lovely) but I gather it happens more and more, certainly in London schools. Those girls are going to turn up in Unis soon, just like the one who turned up in my DDs flat (there was never even a sniff of her parents even existing though she did bring the poor family dog to uni for three weeks, a border collie, she left locked in her room the whole time that was another time my DD upset her as she threatened to tell if she didn't either look after it or take it home) ..... Although I must say unlikely these types turn up in a conservatoire, I think they generally stick to the party cities.

Still if there has been an incident it sounds as if this witch may hang herself on her own petard and give OPs DD and flatmates a chance to get on with enjoying themselves.

Shooting Conservatoires are, in the main, in 'party cities'. You won't get many conservatoires in rural locations (I can't think of any).

How can it possibly be relevant that your DD was at 'one of the most selective private girls' schools in the country' when she was 14? The OP is concerned about a problem in a hall of residence flat.

Portlligat - it sounds like a great idea to have someone visit. Does she have a good friend from home or a cousin or someone, who might fly out for a weekend (even if perhaps you have to help with the flight costs). She doesn't even have to sleep there - just be around during waking hours. And a firm but quiet response to any comments from this Flat(mate!) about not wanting to live with your DD along the lines of "it seems to me that everyone else is very happy here, so why don't YOU move out - then everyone will be happy!" would possibly do the trick very nicely!

Flatmate is trying to isolate your DD. Your DD and her friends (and they are in it together, as if your DD moves out Flatmate will only start on someone else) need to find a way to make it clear that they are the group and Flatmate is the one who is isolated. It doesn't have to be by a big vocal showdown - things like your DD quietly inviting the others to meet for coffee or go to listen to a concert, but no-one invites Flatmate. Do it small and do it often. Even if it doesn't result in Flatmate moving out, DD will have built herself a closer network of friends and be stronger in herself in that way. Isn't the mumsnet saying that we can't change someone else, just the way we respond to them

Can she talk to the other flatmates?

I think if she can never be alone in the kitchen she would be able to eat properly so maybe arrange to have meals with another flatmate or two.

If the rest of the flat present a united front then there is no one for the bully to use to get her kicks.

JennyWren - I think that is really good advice indeed - for the OP's dd to promote friendships with her other flatmates.

The problem with not reporting is that if the situation escalates, and eventually your DD does report, the first question won't be 'why is the person doing this' it will be 'why didn't you say anything'. We had a similar issue with our DD1 at school - there was an implication that by soldiering on she was partly the author of her own misfortune (and idea I completely reject, incidentally - but it's clearly one school of thought :( ). For that reason alone I think your poor DD would do better to report formally now.

Xoanon The flatmate was 14 once, and those bullies are now 17, still being bullies, and applying to uni. I am just pointing out that both my DDs have encountered bullies who are manipulative and have no respect for others, like the witch that is making OPs DD unhappy, both at school and at uni. She is not a one off and this exclusive subculture, with extreme partying as a badge of belonging, exists (though obviously not all those who enjoy partying are exclusive or bullies). I should have said unis in cities with a clubbing culture because I was meaning unis like Leeds and Nottingham which presumably would provide the lifestyle this witch is seeking.

I agree with Jennywren and sashh she is trying to manipulate the group norms to put herself at the centre, and anything your DD can do to make it clear to her she is playing the wrong game given the social group will help. sash I think it was you who posted a great link on alpha girls? I would also add that part of the reason these girls can behave in the way they do is that they have a lack of empathy, especially for anyone who is different to them, so can easily misread the signals from someone who is quiet and introverted and read it as weakness, or unfriendliness. I am guessing that whilst your daughter is introverted she has a strong sense of self and her own identity and asserting that will help, especially when she is somewhere where she is coming into her own. Is the witch actually the one isolated? Does she have anyone to indulge her party lifestyle with? If not she may be driven to find like minds outside the conservatoire and move out anyway?

Xoanon We sort of had the opposite experience in that we did report it but the school felt that making an issue of it would make a DD a target so the focus was on building her confidence up to deal with it. When that didn't work they acted when the bully went to far and was reported for a proper disciplinary offence against my daughter (theft) actually by another pupil, and she was suspended. That bought the entire ire of the bully's crowd on my DD. It felt damned if you do, damned if you don't, which is why I think OPs endgame, whilst foiling her attempts to isolate her DD in the short term, should be in the longer term put space between this girl and OPs DD, by whatever means, even if her DD and her friend find a flatswap to get away from her.

AlpineMeadow - my mum gave me the 'ignore them and they will back off' message when I was in tears at the bullying I received at school. Not only did it not work, but she made me feel like it was my fault that it carried on (because I obviously had failed to ignore them well enough), but she also made me feel like I couldn't go back to her when the bullying did carry on, because she would just dismiss it again.

So I am with you - I am not sure 'ignoring the bullies and it will stop' is an approach that works.

You won't get many conservatoires in rural locations well there was Dartington. Very special place ...