Parents of Oxbridge applicants for 2013

[Thowra]

Anybody else have DC applying for Oxford or Cambridge at the moment? DD submitted her UCAS into school on friday for checking. There are only two applying in her year. Trying to keep her feet (and mine) on the ground as she has fallen completely in love with Oxford and the college she is applying to, but realistically we know she's more likely to be rejected than not. She's got the grades, but I don't know if she's got enough confidence to carry off the interview. All the uni's she has applied to look fantastic, though, so we'll wait and see.

@betelguese no, that's not what I mean. But never mind.

Yeah, I think I'll have a long wait for any but Exeter. I chose Oxford, Durham, Bristol, Nottingham and Exeter in the end - changed UCL to Nottingham at the last minute.

Parental oppression or pressure shouldn't be dressed up as parental support though betelguese, let alone 'simply caring'. That sort of parent can use euphemisms all they like but it doesn't alter the fact that pressure is qualititively different from support - a different beast altogether. The fee thing doesn't help with that of course, just a new stick to beat DC with if you're that way inclined.

I'm not sure at what point on the spectrum that sort of pressure could be said to cause 'health problems' either. I happen to think creating unhappiness in a DC for one's own ends isn't particularly ok, even if you're lucky enough not to trip the DC into full blown mental health issues.

@yellow exactly. But IME there is no telling that sort of parent.

A family we know is going through something like this at the moment. Excessive parental pressure (in this case oppressively passive aggressive and completely self deluding) is causing real issues. Sad to see.

I was a bit puzzled as to what you were getting at Betalguese. The UCAS process, and University once you get there, is a much more competitive than it ever was in the past, but if you have confidence in yourself, are self motivated and able (and the admissions process resolves the question of whether you are able enough ) then your time at university will be some of the best days of your life and equip you for the future. However if your parents have scarificed your self esteem to their own ambitions and pushed you along then you won't have the self confidence and self motivation to succeed, let alone enjoy the ride, or alternatively you will carry a heavy burden of parental expectations and be so worried about failing you will be one of the ones who crashes and burns after camping out in the library during 24 hour opening. The reason that I get upset seeing this as a parent is that as an academic I see the fall out from pushy and, yes, tiger parenting. Counselling Services in universities have to deal with this in ever increasing numbers.

Perhaps with the right help these DCs will go on and lead fulfilling lives (and I mean happy as well as "successful") but there are plenty of damaged people about who don't.

I think, if we are talking Oxbridge specifically, in some ways and for some people it is more competitive (which actually doesn't necessarily make it a harder or more stressful process, of course - just one with less chance of success). But for others it is clearly going to be easier than it was in my day when very few comprehensive kids even applied let alone went there, when kids from comps were often not just the first person from their school to apply to Oxbridge but the first person from their family to apply to university, and when you had to do an entrance exam with no tuition or guidance at all from your school. Now that? Was hard. State school kids are much better prepared these days and get much more institutional support. They don't need tiger parents as well.

Hi, if anyone wants any info/advice about Catz Cambridge please shout or PM me. Or about Cambridge in general.

I would also say, as someone upthread mentioned their DC, or was it niece, thinking that a red brick uni might be better as a state school pupil, I'd have to say in my experience that the opposite is true.

I experienced almost no state/private divide at Cambridge, I have friends from both (am state school myself) and, apart from my close friends, could not tell you what kind of school others at my college went to. I think because everyone is selected on equal academic grounds, no one believes they are better due to the school they went to, academic excellence and a love for the subject come first. It was a really good mix.

However, talking to people at Leeds and Birmingham, both excellent redbrick unis, I was so so surprised to hear that there is a massive state/private divide; from the first week friendship groups are apparently, in the main, formed along these lines. This really surprised me and I offer no explanation, just thought I would share my experience that Oxbridge can be a really accepting and equal environment.

Betelguese grants were not on offer for Middle England (excuses to rest of UK, but YKWIM?) five hears ago, and there were fees, albeit at the now laughably low rate of about £1100 a year. So I thought DC2 was unlucky to be hit with £3000... I grovel now.

Copthall I wish mine had stopped enough for girly things! Pressure on themselves seemed relentless - though I would say to anyone with that worry now that they were more resilient than I realised - or maybe I was already a worn out old hag. And they did different but very time-consuming things in and out of school at the same time - it's so tempting to drop non-academic things and focus down on 3 A levels but they're both so glad they kept balls in the air (even if I found myself catching ones that bounced - was that pushiness or support?). Regarding pushiness, I bow to your better knowledge. I guess we were lucky with the parents around us - and schools: in both advice at UCAS evening was to let the DCs decide, it was their life. In one case, now I think back, the head was quite brutal about it. It was good advice - guess she'd seen what you describe. I did read somewhere a long time ago that pushy parents don't produce clever children, just self-conscious and under-confident ones. But DC2 is so under-confident I could cry sometimes - was I pushy then? The other oozes confidence so it seems unlikely. I think there's more to it - but I would think that wouldn't I? Don't let talk of pushiness tar everyone, or prevent decent parents from offering support (and even advice when asked!) - & they're the most likely to get scared by accusations and back off. For DCs it's both an exciting and daunting time, especially if they're going for hard to get into courses or unis. But if they don't try, they'll never know. They shouldn't be stopped by fear of failure.

Good to hear that, Anna.

Dh's niece is at The Royal Holloway and she says it is heaving with yahs who all stick together. But I suppose it's only the same as sic-fi enthusiasts hanging out with each other, or rugger buggers and so on and so forth. I think the fear still persists that one would get to Oxbridge and be ostracised for not knowing how to eat an artichoke correctly.

Sympathique my DC are mixed too, in terms of confidence in their own abilities and sometimes it's clear that certain DC need a boost to that confidence so that they don't under apply. That's very different to the pernicious form of parenting which I, Copthall and Mordion describe. It's pernicious when parents make the whole process of their DCs education their own. That's when it becomes something for themselves - however they delude themselves that it's for the DC - and that's patently wrong.

I agree Betelguese. I also think that parents should leave the fact that they may be paying for part or all of their DC university education right out of count.

I think most people completely do know the difference between being supportive and being oppressive, actually.

Agree with Anna's remarks about the minimal presence of a state/private divide at Oxbridge. Even in the 80s when I was a former comprehensive pupil at quite a Sloaney Oxford College it really wasn't a problem. Of course private school students are over-represented but that is an issue of social injustice that Oxford University is keen to correct -- they want clever people, that's all. The dafter kind of Hooray probably finds Oxford a far less congenial place than a clever state school person.

Sympathetique At the end of the day all DCs are different, and there is some nature and some nurture. However there is a difference between the naturally shy, under confident, those predisposed (God forbid) to mental illness etc, the nature bit and those who have been damaged by the nurture side of the equation.

Anna The "yahs", "Sloanes" call them what you will, gravitate to certain universities and seek attention. I had the impression Nottingham, Exeter and Newcastle were "faves" but I guess it is any city centre universities. We get a few at our uni but they soon have to cave to peer pressure (the sort that gave rise to the gap yah video). However I wouldn't say that at any of these universities they represent all private school pupils gravitating to each other, they are about as representative of most private school pupils as the Bullingdon Club is of Oxford. More likely in the background there are plenty of friendship groups forming regardless of where you went to school. That is certainly the experience of DDs peers from both state and private schools wherever they have gone, even at Exeter!

Betalguese I know this very well with a daughter studying Science at an elite uni, the students on her course study for quite a bit more than 45 hours a week, contact hours alone with labs mean she had 9-5 days apart from Wednesdays. They are second only to the medics and architects in terms of workload. It is very tough, Maths and Inorganic Chemistry in particular leave many doing retakes, and redoing years not because they don't work hard but because what they study is just so bloody difficult. I warned the OP about this way back down the thread. However my daughter knew this when she applied, was up forit and she absolutely thrives on it. They have a saying on her course, that you can do the work and have a relationship, you can do the work and party (within reason) but you can't do all three.

However there is a difference between coping with this pressure when it was what you decided on and wanted (and granted some will crack up anyway ) and being pushed into it. I am seeing it particularly amongst DD2s peers. Maybe it is the prospect of fees but quite a few more than in DD1s year are being pushed by their parents into doing STEM subjects when it may not be where their talents most lie (It isn't helped by the fact that GCSE Science and Maths doesn't really give a taste of the difficulty that lies ahead.)

Big, big difference between celebrating hugely because a DC gets into Oxford or Cambridge and sending the DC a message (subliminal or not) that their life (and that of the disappointed parent) can now only ever be second best.

I'm amazed when I see parents on MN saying of their very young DC that they, the DC, wants to go to Oxford or Cambridge and what is the best educational game plan to maximise the chance of bagging the glittering prize.

Then there's the whole ludicrous idea of 'Oxbridge' tutoring: special tailor made packages to allegedly increase the chance of success.

It's all pressure and it's all bad.

Well, to be fair, I remember saying to my mum when I was about 4, watching the boat race, that I was going to go to Cambridge. Liz Shaw, the third doctor's first assistant, was a Cambridge academic. So, you know........... And I did grow up basically always wanting to go there, not just because of Liz shaw, but because it was the Best Place. I would, I suppose, have dumped the notion had it become clear it was ludicrous (like that whole being the first 'lady astronaut' thing I had going on when I was about 8) - but it never did.

This is in danger of getting into a Pythonesque debate! And being of less relevence to OP but to underline the difficulty of STEM courses, at DDs uni if you fail more than 1 out of 9 first year modules, 4 per term and one across both terms you cannot progress to the second year, all are a combination of coursework and marked labs and a final exam (4 exams after Christmas) the 9 modules are 10%of the final degree, so everything you do counts. Two fails and you redo the two modules the following year, more than that and you redo the whole year. It seems to run on similar lines to Medicine. The number of students falling at these hurdles seems quite high, though it is an A*AA course and most have better. I remember that you had to pass at Oxford and hearing of people whose colleges decided whether to let them back in but it didn't seem as common as at DDs uni. The second year has seen her friend who is on a scholarship to read Maths fail 4 out of 9 modules, he worked hard but just struggled with some courses. However it is treated as a fact of life, no disgrace. They seem to get enough support from tutors and each other. I am surprised there aren't more crashing and burning but they are all passionate Scientists, and love their uni and course. There is a wonderful buzz around Science at the moment with all the advances going on, plenty of heroes around, including at their uni. They are pressured but also inspired. We certainly do not subject our first years to such relentless pressure except in the language component of the degree (simply because they are tested regularly to consolodate before they progress)

US seems to be equally hard, a DC I know at Wellesley failed an exam at the end of the first term of the first year and has had to go through the readmission process, failed at first attempt, now parents are forking out for endless Harvard (presumably some sort of preparatory) modules to prepare him for another.

anna thank you for your post.

It's my niece I'm trying to convince to at least consider Oxford. I'm going to take her for some open days and see if it appeals to her.