Parents of Oxbridge applicants for 2013

[Thowra]

Anybody else have DC applying for Oxford or Cambridge at the moment? DD submitted her UCAS into school on friday for checking. There are only two applying in her year. Trying to keep her feet (and mine) on the ground as she has fallen completely in love with Oxford and the college she is applying to, but realistically we know she's more likely to be rejected than not. She's got the grades, but I don't know if she's got enough confidence to carry off the interview. All the uni's she has applied to look fantastic, though, so we'll wait and see.

[Tressy]

To the OP, good luck for your DD. I can imagine you are really behind her and proud of her.

Different situation (not Oxbridge) but I went through the rollercoaster of UCAS with my DD. She had a goal and it started looking like she might not get the opportunity to fulfill it but thanks to excellent advice and encouragement I got on here she made it. I was right beside her through from start to finish. Don't think you have made an arse of yourself, just be prepared for the what if's.

Mine has settled in really well and enjoying her course and uni life and I am happy to leave her to it and take a back seat, now.

[Sympathique]

I'm not sure what to make of this thread now. It seems the majority of parents has been labelled as domineering and helicoptering. In my considerable experience, it's a very small minority. Biologically, we are one of those species that puts a lot of effort into a few offspring rather than little effort into a lot (think elephants vs frogs), so it is hardly suprising that we support our children. What should we do? Shove them onto the streets at 16?

Copthall: "My DD commented, after her peers had gone through the UCAS admissions round, there were too many pupils whose sense of disappointment at rejection came not from their own disappointment, they knew there was an element of lottery and they were going to great unis, but from the feeling they had let their parents down, even if the parents had made it clear they didn't care."

What on earth does that mean...? The parents had given absolutely the right response. It's clear to me the young people were transferring their own disappointment onto them; an understandable reaction to what for some will have been their first ever rejection. I daresay the parents coped, they sound wonderful.

Heartfelt good luck to everybody with DCs applying this year and please don't think you shouldn't care! And if they should not get to wherever they have their hopes pinned on, supporting DCs through disappointments and back into the sunshine is one of the most rewarding parts of parenting.

[Copthallresident]

Sympathique I am in no way saying parents shouldn't care, as I said in my post it is important that we support and facilitate our DCs to make their own choices and express their own personalities and passions in the personal statements. Hopefully we will be doing so in partnership with schools who will have the experience, resources and understanding of the current UCAS process and academic environment, and understanding of our DCs to help them make the best choices. A small minority of schools do not give the support they should but that will be obvious from the application and universities take this into account.

However as a parent my DD made me aware of some truly horrific examples of pushy / helicopter parenting, not the majority but a significant minority. Several examples of completing, or comprehensively changing the DCs personal statement and then wading into the school when they changed it back to the DCs original, keeping their DCs grounded from February half term to the exams and dictating the choice of course and university. Schools complain that parents have an outdated wishlist of universities and are not open minded about other universities and courses which may better meet the needs of their DCs, and be more realistic choices. I even heard one parent moaning that Nottingham and Warwick were DCs choices, thirty years ago perhaps they weren't in the league of Oxbridge Bristol and Durham but Warwick?!! I put forward the view of my DDs peers that though their schools prepared them well for the realities of the UCAS process these parental perceptions represent an extra burden of expectation even when their own parents didn't share them. I am only telling it as they experience it.

I know as an academic that as yellowtip says pushiness is not worth it and can be wrong for the child. It is a problem for universities when DCs drop out of courses because they were chosen as a result of what the parents wanted not what was right for DC and that applications that have been written or clearly heavily influenced by parents, or written to a formula give an applicant no advantage.

[MordionAgenos]

@copthall Certainly 30 years ago Warwick was a much better place for maths than Oxford. I expect it still is. As it happens, the maths people I know who went to Warwick are now fantastically successful (but in the world of Tv and writing, not maths).

[Tressy]

Copthall, what type of school are we talking about, sounds like an expensive feeder school for Oxbridge.

OP's DD was from a school that had only two pupils applying. I can understand her enthusiasm and her DD is a very strong candidate on paper too.

[Sympathique]

Copthall Forgive me if I am being thick, but this I still don't understand: "I put forward the view of my DDs peers that though their schools prepared them well for the realities of the UCAS process these parental perceptions represent an extra burden of expectation ... even when their own parents didn't share them." Quoi? How can both statements be true? Unless, as I said in my post, the students are transferring their own disappointment. How many times can a parent say "it really doesn't matter, you will be happy, whoever gets you is lucky"?

Yes I understand what you are saying about controlling parents - and yes I have seen a few, but it is a few (and the embattled OP is not one of them). Most of us do the best we can. Yes, I agree with what you are saying about getting in to these places not being the end point - thriving when you are there is what matters. But the universities themselves are pretty good about picking the ones who thrive so applicantys shouldn't worry about that. FWIW, both my DCs were told that the majority of oxbridge freshers are convinced that the university has made a mistake! Whether it is true or not that some independents 'groom' their applicants, the fact that this is spread in the media probably prompts worried parents to interfere to give what they think is a better chance for their DC. I think most parents are not as twisted as it might be imagined. But you're right: there are a few horrors out there. But not on lovely MN, surely!

Mordion I've heard the same about English...

[MordionAgenos]

@sympathique the other way round? Or not? I know one professional writer who went to Oxford. But I know of loads and loads. I always assumed that Fry and Adams notwithstanding, Oxford was perhaps better for English.....but that wasn't based on anything factual, really. My most successful (I think) writer friend was at Cambridge with me. But he read history! Actually - Will Self went to Oxford, no? So it must be better!

[Sympathique]

Mordion - I meant that ~6-7 years ago (a DC going thro' UKAS then) Warwick was seen as maybe even more competitive to get into than Ox- or -bridge for English by her school. And it seemed to be viewed an equal privilege to get an offer from any of them. I have no idea what DC's contemporaries who studied English are doing now.

The same kind of kudos seesm to apply now - e.g. Imperial for engineering/science, Manchester/KCL for music, and so on. But the glamour of oxbridge is hard to ignore - and of course they have the interview process which adds to the excitement/terror.

Copthall Visit the student room if you think all the pressure and angst comes from the parents. Also, it's easy when your DCs are past that stage to forget what it was like and tell yourself you were perfectly calm about it all. Maybe you were - I know the odd parent who is a paragon but most of us are mere mortals.

[Copthallresident]

Sympathique I am not a paragon but I was/am busy with my own academic career, some of this pressure is the fulfillment of vicarious ambition. Also my DDs have their own minds about what they want to do. I know nothing apparently, it keeps me humble //wink.

Of course the atmosphere of parental expectation/ celebration created by some parents can affect all pupils, however many times you are saying how proud you are of your DC. They are not one dimensional beings our DCs, I don't doubt some percieve failure to get into Oxbridge as a personal rejection but it is possible to be looking forward to uni and have had realistic expectations of success but then be made to feel worse about it because of the way some parents talk and behave. I am only reporting back on the discussions I have had and heard between DD and her peers

However I suspect we agree, it is just a matter of our perspectives. I have never said OP was one of these pushy parents. If you read my posts I was concerned, especially having a Science geek DD with so many Science geek friends, she was putting all her hopes in one basket, and didn't quite appreciate that her other daughters options were just as amazing, if not better than Oxbridge. There were some 4 A* Scientists rejected from Oxbridge but all are thriving now, if finding it a very tough challenge.

*Tressy" DD's peers were at state and private but I will concede an expensive feeder suburb for Oxbridge, the statistics often get quoted. Ridiculous levels of parental desperation prevailed at 11, UCAS quite relaxed in comparison!!

Mordian Not arguing at all. Just that thirty years ago Warwick was very much on the way up in people's perceptions (different to reality) whereas now surely everyone knows it is one of the best. I actually kept being sent off to work on a project with the Business School in the 80s so know all about the scary standard of Maths and brilliant business minds there and was under no illusions about the reality!

[cinnamonnut]

I got three confirmation of receipt emails from universities today

[funnyperson]

There is probably a zen to the UCAS process, of caring but not caring. Mindset is important. In short, to care enough to work hard, to be proactive, but not to care so much that it clouds the mind or excludes good options.

Some do better precisely because applying to Oxford is not the norm, but a dream, some do better with family support and precedent. Thowra you do not make an ass of yourself at all: nothing wrong with a parent wanting to share the process: It is a competitive, uncertain, important time and whilst exciting, can be lonely. I wish the DC well.

[Sympathique]

I like the zen idea. Me I practise the swan approach. It's a shame that the original purpose of the thread has been kinda lost. I'm a bit new here. Hope it doesn't always happen. Perhaps it's just a temporary diversion. Lots of time til December - gather Oxford offers aren't out til Jan this time around?? (now there's a nice uncontroversial query). Be nice if parents could share their angsts on here as time ticks by, interview dates get given or not, DCs are flooded with other stuff and one worries how best to bolster them, make sure they get some sleep at least, and so on. Don't know about anyone else but my DCs often asked my advice, still do - WHY?! I'm usually scared they might take it. It would be nice if parents could bounce ideas on here when that happens. Hey ho.

[Tressy]

Cinnamonnut fingers crossed you get the interviews and offers you want.

[cinnamonnut]

Thanks Tressy

Exeter gave out some offers in early October within a couple of days of people sending their applications last year, so I'm hoping for something in the next month!

[Sympathique]

Differs between subjects sometimes, so don't get despondent if you don't hear quickly. Means nowt. Exciting times. Good luck!

[gelo]

That would be a shame if it's true sympathetique - one of the really nice things about applying to Ox rather than Camb was knowing either way before xmas. The Ox application system has a few other plus points too, like less stressful pooling and less variable offers.

[Yellowtip]

Exeter is well known for giving out lots and lots of early offers cinnamonnut, but then it doesn't ask for the LNAT. Durham gives a few early offers too, to applicants with lots of A* at GCSE and who then do well in the LNAT (start of Nov?). Don't bite your nails for Bristol. Nottingham can also be slow. UCL starts shelling out offers in January, having told those that it's culled soon after the deadline for LNAT (20 was the minimum cut off for 2011, not sure about 2012). Warwick can go either way: I've seen responses at both extremes for Oxbridge applicants with identical grades and identical predictions from the same school in the same year with both being Oxford applicants (and both successful, as it turned out).

[Copthallresident]

I like Zen and swan.

I was more of an ostrich with a penchant for cliches like "what will be will be". At 11 I so perfected the art of retrieving DD2 from the playground at pick up time without exposure to the miasma of parental anxiety and one up manship that the SAS couldn't have done it better rescuing hostages,
and I tried to do the same metaphorically at 18.

So perhaps next UCAS process (next year ) I will try a swan with it's head in the sand reciting the "what will be,will be" mantra. Although I also recommend a touch of the domestic goddess (not at all my usual style) to make them feel special, homemade Brownies, tidied room etc,

and chauffeur, really good for getting them to open up about how they feel, something about facing the same direction....

and a taste for romcoms, impossible to stay stressed during a girls' nights bonding over Bridget Jones, Fresh Meat or whatever (QVC even on one occasion resulting in the purchase of some truly horrible Xmas deccies). As a result Bridget Jones is now an institution in our family (perfectly valid as Oxbridge preparation, I knew Helen Fielding when she was at St Annes in the 70s, very mousey, always dressed in a beige duffle coat, it's not always the ones who are brimming with intimidating confidence....)

cinnamonnut Quite a few unis and subjects will give early offers if predicted grades and early submission to the Oxbridge deadline suggest a strategy of wooing you! Interviews at other unis may turn out to be charm offensives in disguise (UCL do that a lot). Others though may keep you waiting until the bitter end, Durham seem to do that particularly for their most popular courses, and as Sympathetique says it doesn't mean anything except possibly that it is part of their strategy to level the playing field since state school candidates tend to account for a dispropotionate percentage of later applications. Oxbridge applicants usually have self esteemboosting, pressure reducing offers prior to the Oxbridge interviews which helps. It is the medics who sit offerless as everyone else is getting excited and motivated.

[Yellowtip]

It really is very variegated across subjects Copthall. What I said was Law specific but definitely Durham can keep top applicants for the most competitive subjects hanging on for their offer until the bitter end.

Of course lots of parents, no doubt the majority, are clucky and supportive and get it just right but I wholly agree with Copthall that there are some who take over, live vicariously or competitively, and seriously destroy their child. And that really is abhorrent to watch. A very brilliant schoolfriend was destroyed at Oxford by that kind of stuff. And I see these parents now in RL but also on MN. They can be very bitter indeed when things don't turn out 'well'.

[Copthallresident]

yellowtip we crossposted, I was mainly commenting on Science and Humanities. Your Law experience is more relevent to cinnamonnut.

[MordionAgenos]

@betelguese I had a long, severe and damn near fatal health problem when I was in my first year at uni. But I ended up just fine (obviously if I had died then that wouldn't have been the case). I knew a girl on the next corridor whose parents drove her first to drink then to a breakdown and finally to dropping out and doing a TEFL qualification instead (which she also dropped out of). I don't know what happened to her after that. :(