Medicine at Oxbridge - to apply or not?

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

Hi all,
DS wants to study medicine. He has 10 A*s, 4As at AS and is taking 4 A levels. His UKCAT was 700. His careers teacher is keen that he applies to Oxford or Cambridge. DS is very laid back and relaxed, but unsure whether to give it a go or not. He is worried that - as medicine is so hard to get into - it could waste a choice.
So, could anyone answer the following questions:

1. Would a degree in medicine from Oxbridge be advantageous to his career?
2. Would the course be 'all work and no play'?
3. Would studying for the BMAT be a lot of extra work or would it benefit him academically?
4. Does Oxbridge produce better doctors?
5. He attends a state school and we both work - however - I have read stories that tickets for balls are around £100 each. As he would have to take a loan to pay the fees, I am concerned that there would be a lot of 'extras' which he could not afford. Is this the case?

I attended a RG university and do not know anyone who has been to Oxbridge. I would be very grateful for opinions regarding the above.

I would say don't go, go to London, Manchester or another big multicultural city.

I have no doubt the education is fantastic and I only have experience of working with doctors trained at Oxford. They generally live in another rather closseted world.

They have no idea how to deal with someone who doesn't speak English for instance. They also struggle in their first year with not being the 'elite', but with being the bottom of the ladder.

And does it really matter what you wear to take an exam? At Oxford the medical students have to attend the hospital for exams in a black bow tie and white shirt.

That's my experience, it is also a few years out of date. But IMHO if you are going to be a doctor you are better off learning that not everyone is white, educated and English speaking, and how to deal with people from diverse backgrounds.

I glad that sashh concedes that her experience is out of date. It doesn't even happen to coincide with my experience of doctors trained there several decades ago either. Generalising just from my own GP surgery, two of the doctors are Cambridge educated and one Oxford educated and all of those three are particularly well regarded as excellent communicators across the community and age range. What sashh says is merely a grotesque stereotype.

And it's hardly a reflection on the ability or competence or social skills of young doctors that Oxford University statutes dictate a particular code of dress for exams. One needs to look beyond superficial detail like that.

Oxbridge would have been considered 'out of our league'

My advice to that is always to apply and then let them decide what "league" you are in.

I'm reliably informed applicants do not have to record on the UCAS form that they taken the BMAT. As the BMAT results are only sent to members of the BMAT consortium other medical schools may guess you have taken it but it is only a guess and they do not know your results.

The medical recruitment process has changed and is still changing. Anyone giving advice solely based on their own experience may be out-of-date. There is useful information about the Foundation Programme here www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/academic-programmes/how-to-apply To get your choice of deanery and rotation you will need to score well in your medical school exams as allocations are (or were this year) largely based on exam results. Thereafter it will depend on how flexible you are in taking training posts and how well you do in them. How well you do is generally related to how much you absorbed at medical school.

The newmedia website is here www.newmediamedicine.com/forum/forum.php

I forgot to mention earler that an intercalated degree (where you do 6th year and acquire a BSc/BA) is only available to a top percentage in some medical schools. It may vary between schools - the top 15% at one. At some medical schools, including Oxbridge, all students do the extra year. OP you should plan on your son wanting to do 6 years of study.

Waht sashh says is not merely a gross stereotype. Oxbridge students do not, on starting F1, always have the same inter-personal skills as a student who has practised on patients from the first year at medical school. They may acquire those skills later.

Of course it's a gross stereotype: as if all, or even most, or even any young Oxford and Cambridge medics need to 'learn' that Britain isn't an exclusively white middle class world. How offensive can you get?

It's as well that the tutors making the selection decisions are more intelligent than people making ridiculously narrow comments like that. There does seem to be a lot of anti Oxbridge bias on these threads at the moment. I wonder why?

lol We do not judge or select students on their accent (whether it be Geordie, Glaswegian or Cockney)
thank christ for that
funny when thinking of accents weegie got a mention

thats actually a v good link Betelguese

Thank you all for your opinions. DS spent last night pouring over prospectuses and checking out funding. There are definitely lots of bursaries and grants available. His school have never discussed this with them - perhaps if more state schools made their pupils aware of the funding - more pupils from the state sector might apply to Oxbridge. So the money is no longer an issue.

He likes the idea of small tutorials; Oxford's prospectus states that medical students are tutored in groups of as little as two.

He is however concerned that there is little patient contact in the first three years. He loves helping at the stroke club where he volunteers and relishes spending time with the clients. That side of medicine is extremely important to him.

Alreadytaken -he was worried that the other universities may be disinterested in him if they saw BMAT on the UCAS. It is good to hear this is not the case - although you would assume that it wouldn't matter to them if he was applying to Oxbridge or not. Thanks also for the info regarding the intercalated degree, although at this stage it is not a deciding factor.

He has had a look at the BMAT and is going to sit a paper to see how he performs. He is not keen on the essay writing section, but it is only worth 20%.

Yes, good link Betelguese (as usual!).

wehaveonlyjustbegun I'd have thought that if a student isn't up to looking on the Oxford and Cambridge websites himself to get an idea of what those places have to offer, he made need to spark up a little if he's hoping for a place. The Oxford website is all that a prospective student needs; its message about wanting to attract all types of student and doing everything it can to facilitate access is loud and clear. These schemes are also often discussed in the press.

If he's thinking of Imperial too, it might be useful to know that the BMAT score is used differently there to Oxford. Cambridge is slightly different again.

Yellowtip you write like a child. It is not anti-Oxbridge but an attempt to present to wehaveonlyjustbegun a balanced view to help their son make a choice. The figures Betelgeuse links to are, I'm afraid, less interesting than you think. Universities admit different proportions of foreign students and that distorts the figures. The data on household areas is not a true indication of widening access. Of course none of that relates only to medicine.

wehaveonlyjustbegun it's a pity that your son wasn't able to visit but there is usually an Oxford open day in September and at least some Cambridge colleges have open days in September. It may not be too late, although he would have to reach a decision very promptly afterwards. It is very likely that he would be invited to interview at either and they both provide free accommodation so if he does apply he would have a few days to form an impression of the place. Interviews normally require more than one day. He can make an open application if he doesn't feel he can chose a college.

alreadytaken - He is thinking of applying and having a look around if he gets an interview. I think in Oxford's case - if you apply to two named colleges - he would have his interviews over two separate days. That should give him enough time to get a feel for the place.

His main priority is to get a place at medical school. We know lots of kids who have ended up with no offers.

wehave, I'd suggest that he does a bit of problem-solving about the patient contact issue, then brings it up at the interview. E.g. he might think about joining a specialist student volunteer organisation in whatever city he ends up in (such as this one) as this would allow him to maintain his volunteering while working for an organisation that understands student timetables.

What has his volunteering taught him so far about the issues that might affect medical management of stroke?

All the student medics I knew at Cambridge (long time ago) personified the old saying that if you want something done, ask a busy person. They had big academic timetables but also did sport, wrote shows and acted in them, were activists, volunteered, socialised, the works. They tended to look a bit pale at exam time as a result but they weren't alone in that! Most of the ones I spent most time with had gone to state schools I think, as had I, not that this was a major topic of conversation tbh.

Joan- when you suggest he brings it up at interview, do you mean to let them know that patient contact is very important to him?

Thanks for the link and your perspective.

alreadytaken whatever age you think I am (child not teenager?!), it's hard at the moment on these medical threads to get any 'balance'. The reason for this is the bias which hides behind the mantra that clinical exposure in the first three years is essential if a student is to blossom into a decent doctor (I use that word deliberately). But when this bias moves into denigrating the social skills and conscience of Oxford and Cambridge medical students then it's probably time to call a halt. To my certain knowledge some of this is sour grapes. Not very laudable at all.

London has excellent medical schools. The rest of the UK has excellent medical schools. Oxford and Cambridge are excellent medical schools. These various medical schools just happen to differ a lot.

This ridiculous bias happens with schools too. Why do some posters insist that wherever their child happens to go is the best? Why does it matter? But it does wear thin after a while - so blinkered and narrow.

Incidentally I was referring to the link Betelguese provided to the Durham thread, not the state school stats.

wehaveonly as far as Oxford goes, he would apply to one college and be allocated to a second, randomly by computer. His interviews would extend over two days yes. All a bit hurried however. He might do well to go to Oxford between now and the application deadline to see what he thinks. Why didn't his school encourage him to go to the dedicated Open Days in the summer? Did he not even know they were on?

Can you pay for some legal advice?

It's not about students not comming from state schools, or students not being aware that \britain is multicultural. It is about only encountering white, native English speakers inn the hospitals they train in.

Manchester and London have diverse communities, Oxford does not.

Generalising just from my own GP surgery, two of the doctors are Cambridge educated and one Oxford educated and all of those three are particularly well regarded as excellent communicators across the community and age range. What sashh says is merely a grotesque stereotype.

That's really quite offensive. A GP has had a minimum of 10 years training post graduation. I'm interested that you have canvassed your entire community, that must have been quite difficult.

A quote from one of the doctors I worked with when a patient arrived for clinic in the school holidays with four children in tow, "But why hasn't she left them with the nanny?"

I really hope that is out of date, but you cannot get away from the fact you are unlikly to encounter the same range of people in Oxford you will do in most British cities.

sashh it might be worth your re-reading your original post. It's actually not ok to slate the whole Oxford medical community by claiming that you know that 'they have no idea how to deal with someone who doesn't speak English'. The JR gets a great deal of traffic therough its doors and by no means all that traffic is 'white, educated and English speaking'. There's a good number of people living outside North Oxford who don't fit that desciption at all. Attempting to do all Oxford medics down by complaining about university dress code and by quoting a silly nanny comment by an isolated individual doesn't hold much more water.

Incidentally, I don't have any need at all to 'canvass' my whole community to know which doctors are held in particularly high regard. It's very well known, especially when you've lived an area for as long as I have.

Betelguese - he has looked at the Scottish schools and was really impressed. He would be delighted to attain a place at Aberdeen, Dundee or Edinburgh.

Yellowtip- I see from Oxford's website that he could attend drop-in sessions at their open day on the 14th September. I will get him to have a look at flights when he comes home from school.

sashh - At one of the open days he attended, a lecturer basically repeated what you have said above. He stated that as a student you want to see as diverse a range of conditions as possible.

OP of course you want to see as diverse a range of conditions as possible and some of those conditions are inevitable related to ethnicity. But in terms of ethnicity it's arguable that the JR sees a greater variation of ethnicities than Birmingham say. I can't imagine for a moment that a lecturer at another university open said that Oxford and Cambridge medics were homogenous, insular and lacking in empathy.

That's good about the Open Day on the 14th. Ideal for him to go and talk to as many people as possible and see what the reality is for himself. Hopefully he'll come back home positive and will then still have three weeks to make a college choice, which is plenty.

Yellowtip - sorry crossed wires! No, the lecturer was not referring to Oxford or Cambridge students. He was merely stating that in a multicultural city a medical student would get to see a range of conditions that he may not see in Belfast for example.

I am looking at Oxford's website and he would not have to book for the departmental talks. All he has to do now is work out the best way to get there!