Medicine at Oxbridge - to apply or not?

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

Hi all,
DS wants to study medicine. He has 10 A*s, 4As at AS and is taking 4 A levels. His UKCAT was 700. His careers teacher is keen that he applies to Oxford or Cambridge. DS is very laid back and relaxed, but unsure whether to give it a go or not. He is worried that - as medicine is so hard to get into - it could waste a choice.
So, could anyone answer the following questions:

1. Would a degree in medicine from Oxbridge be advantageous to his career?
   
2. Would the course be 'all work and no play'?
   
3. Would studying for the BMAT be a lot of extra work or would it benefit him academically?
   
4. Does Oxbridge produce better doctors?
   
5. He attends a state school and we both work - however - I have read stories that tickets for balls are around £100 each. As he would have to take a loan to pay the fees, I am concerned that there would be a lot of 'extras' which he could not afford. Is this the case?
   

I attended a RG university and do not know anyone who has been to Oxbridge. I would be very grateful for opinions regarding the above.

[Yellowtip]

LittleFrieda the point was (if you re-read your post) that you said this was how some colleges select for interview. Which isn't correct. That's all. As a point of interest DS scored significantly higher in S1 than S2 but both his first and second choice colleges wanted him. His first is pretty competitive for Medicine as well. So clearly neither S2 nor History at A2 was a particular problem. Mind you, he was a pretty strong applicant (biased :)).

Out of curiosity, how did your DS apply to seven? Were some outside the UK?

[LittleFrieda]

Yellowtip - It's perfectly possible to be high in s.2 and even higher in s.1.

He applied over 2 cycles, all in the UK. He got all four offers the first time (four interviews) and had three offers the second time (three interviews). One of the four choices in the second cycle he was rejected without interview. He didn't meet his chosen offer first time round which is why he had to reapply.

[LittleFrieda]

Yellowtip - what was his s.2 score as a matter of interest?

[LittleFrieda]

OP, I would separate the fact that it's Oxford and Cambridge. I woud get him to set out his application and then strike out the med schools for which he would not qualify for whatever reason. Then reasearch the type of courses the remainder offer and eliminate any med schools that use styles of learning he doesn't like. Then he will see what his choices are. A lot of Oxford medics end up doing their clinical years outside of the Oxford deanery. For example 55 students each year transfer into UCL MBBS programme in Yr 3 from Oxbridge.

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

LittleFrieda - He knows that he doesn't want to go to a university that uses PBL. He would prefer to go to one that uses an integrated approach. So that rules out quite a few. He is also keen on the Scottish universities - except Glasgow which uses PBL. He is getting there - he has learnt a lot from this thread - as have I!

[LittleFrieda]

Integrated and PBL are not disjoint sets.

Integrated means that clinical study is integrated into the learning of the medical science bit. To the student this means that he will have patient contact or certainly learn about the effects on patients in the pre-clinical years. I think most integrated courses use at least a bit of PBL, certainly UCL do some PBL. Oxford and Cambridge are not integrated courses, they are traditional courses.

If he likes lecure-based learning on an integrated course, I would say look at Newcastle, Edinburgh, UCL, Bristol, Sheffield,

Is it worth him looking at this to understand the various course structures:

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Medicine_Course_Structure

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

Thanks LF, DS thought integrated referred to courses that use a mix of teaching styles. If I have the right end of the stick, they do use a range of teaching styles but they are known as integrated because they use clinical teaching also.

I don't think he would consider Sheffield as his UKCAT score would in all probability not be good enough. I also haven't heard Newcastle mentioned - he is going to have a look at their website. Lots of cheap flights into Newcastle - definitely worth a look. Traditionally lots of NI children choose universities in Scotland because of its cultural links and close proximity.

He likes the tutorial system of Oxbridge, but wonders if he may be slightly bored in the lectures. However, their website states that there are also clinical demonstrations and visits to GP tutors.

Thank you very much for the link- DS is looking it up as we speak.

[Yellowtip]

The single rejection without interview wasn't from Bristol by any chance Little Frieda?! DS is out tonight and I can't remember his S2 with accuracy, only S1 and S3 for some reason. I'll ask him tomorrow.

wehaveonlyjustbegun why does he think lectures might bore him?

And Little Frieda - again out of curiosity - did your DS re-apply to any universities in the second cycle which he'd applied to in the first? I can see very difficult decisions to be made in his circumstances. Clearly the outcome was fine, but did he feel he had to compromise his choices the second time round? I'm just wondering what advice I'd give and how bold I'd be. It must have been grim on results day. Poor him.

[Yellowtip]

LF but there aren't enough places for all undergrads to do the clinical years in Oxford are there? So it's not necessarily by choice that some go to London? Not sure of the numbers.

[LittleFrieda]

Yellowtip He applied to only one med school in the second cycle which he'd applied to in the first, after first checking they would welcome an application from him, he wrote to them explaining what had happened. They said they'd give proper consideration to a repeat application. But it was a risk as DS1 had previously declined their offer. We did wonder if they would reject him. But they didn't. It's all worked very well. Has your son's firm offer got an A* in it?

Yes I know there are insufficient places to do the clincial years in Oxford, but some poeple don't realise that they may end up at UCL, it sort of helps the decision making if you know that. UCL offer might be AAAa, and Oxford offer for St John's might be AAAa

[Yellowtip]

Yes that situation of re-applying to one you like but have previously rejected is a real problem. Good for them re-offering.

No, his offer was AAA, including Chemistry. They didn't mind which the other two As were in - any two out of Biology, Physics or History.

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

LF - The ISC Medical website gives a really comprehensive breakdown and analysis of medical school courses. I also take your point, that he needs to consider if he was accepted to Oxford, he may have to move somewhere else to do his clinical training.

Yellowtip - The problem is that he doesn't know if a course based on a lecture system is right for him.

[habbibu]

Just to add another to the mix - has he considered http://medicine.st-andrews.ac.uk/prospectus/ St Andrews? You only do your pre-clinical years there, and then transfer, but it looks like they do a lot of patient-centred stuff. Not really my area, though, so do ignore if this has already been discounted.

[Yellowtip]

Another factor to consider (which may give Oxford the edge) is that the clinical years can only be done in Oxford if you have done your pre-clinical at Oxford or Cambridge. You can transfer out to London, but not in from there.

[Lolwhut]

I am not sure if the following has been said before but we found it useful to look at each Uni's actual admissions statistics as well as their entry requirements. Also, some Uni's have a separate admissions policy document which can give more detailed information than that given in the admission criteria given in the prospectuses. (IYSWIM)

The Oxford Uni Admissions Stats Page suggests that your son would be in a good position with his excellent GCSE results. Although! it shows that two thirds of those with 100% A* GCSE still don't get offered places.

I could not find the statistics for Cambridge, they are much more cagey with their information.

My DS is studying medicine at Sheffield and is enjoying it tremendously. He wanted somewhere with early clinical experience and wasn't keen on the shorter terms at Oxford and Cambridge. He got two offers after interview, one rejection after interview and he withdrew his application from Bristol as he already had his first .choice and they were taking too long. He had a high UKCAT which compensated for him having absolutely no GCSE's (or anything similar) as we had previously lived overseas.

I am sure the teaching at Oxbridge would be amazing but, personally, wouldn't be concerned about which Uni produced the best DR's. They are all good. . He needs to work out where he would be happiest, where would suit his learning style and where he has the best chance of getting in.

One thing we did,that we thought worked out well, was for my DS to go to the open days on his own. (or with friends) He thinks it helped him make up his own mind about where he wanted to go. Obviously he wanted our opinions on where would be a nice place to study but he wasn't overly influenced by what we thought. I realise your DS will have already attending any open days but I thought I would mention it in case other potential Medic Application DM's were reading?

I don't know about Cambrigde but I love Oxford and think it would be a great place to go to Uni. It's got a lovely studenty feel to the town and everything is nice and central. My son did a Week work experience at The John Radcliffe and was very, very impressed.

I have said it before, but I think there should be a degree course in How To Apply To Medical School. It's so complicated, everything changes year on year and not all the information you get is correct.

Good luck to your DS.

[LittleFrieda]

But that's only because Oxford and Cambridge have too few clinical placements for their students, not because they are special. St Andrews is the same. Innit

I think they work them very very hard in the pre-clinical years at Oxford and I think that is something to bear in mind. And when you apply for your FY1 post, you get a score for your educational performance to date- a certain number of points depending on which decile you fall in, in your med school, and the other half of the points come from a situational judgement test, which I imagine those on an integrated course will have the edge on patient-focussed problem solving, because they've been doing it longer. Perhaps. And don't you apply for your job med-school blind?

[Lolwhut]

Yup, you apply for your post med school job totally blind. So best to choose the med school where you would have the best time and suit the learning style Rather than worry about reputation?? (I think? )

[Yellowtip]

We tend not to get too hung up on long term game plans and every last possible consequence here. DS knew Oxford, knew he'd like to be an undergrad there, saw it was in the realms of the possible to apply and applied. I suppose we'd both tend to think there was quite a long way to go before he needs to fret about jobs. Anyhow surely Oxford medical graduates aren't at a serious disadvantage when it comes to jobs? I thought they did pretty well.

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

LF and Lolwhut - sorry, but can you explain what you mean when you say ,"you apply for your job med-school blind."? Does it mean that they don't take into account where you did your degree?

Lolwhut - I am glad that your son is happy - that is the most important thing.

"He needs to work out where he would be happiest, where would suit his learning style and where he has the best chance of getting in." - I think that sums up the key to the whole business very concisely and is excellent advice - thank you!

[LittleFrieda]

Yellowtip - well given he's yet to start at med school that's understandable. I would think the vast majority of medics would be in the realms of possible to apply to Oxford, no?

The standard offer at Oxford is the same as the standard offer at most med schools and A level subject requirements are the same. Birmingham's GCSE A* re but they don't apply for Oxbridge because they feel medicine is tough to get into, and medicine at Oxford is really tough to get into. They especially don't apply to Oxbridge if they get a good UKCAT (they capitalize on that by applying to med schools which operate high UKCAT cut offs) and if they get poor UKCAT scores, they panic and decide against sitting the BMAT and concentrate on Bristol and Birmingham and med schools who do not demand high UKCAT scores. Or they decide they want to do Classics at Bailliol after all. :) Oxford and Cambridge have fewer applicants per place than most med schools. And there it's quite common for Edinburgh and Bristol to reject a candidate who is accepted at Oxford. I think Queen's Belfast has the fewest applicants per place of all the med schools.

My son was brave in that he got a very very high UKCAT scoer but still sat the BMAT - which he scored very well in too.

There are excellent candidates at all med schools, and there are some also rans who get in at all med schools, including Oxford.

[Piffle]

A boy at my sons state grammar school with 14 A GCSE's and FSMQ in Maths with full marks and 4 A A levels in Maths Further Maths, Chem and Physics failed to get into Cambridge this year.
No one really knows why, he did not ever get an interview.

[LittleFrieda]

Gah I pressed post before I'd finished amending. Imeant to say B'ham's GCSE A* requirement is more rigourous than Oxford's and the offer is the same: AAA with the same compulsory subjects.

[LittleFrieda]

Is it because he hasn't studies biology?

[LittleFrieda]

Piffle - what was his BMAT? Perhaps it was that. Or perhaps he didn't fill out the Supplementary information thing? Can't he get feedback?

[LittleFrieda]

Piffle - Or perhaps, CRB or some other fitness to practice concern?

Applying for medicine really isn't all about the grades, but you need the grades to be an applicant.