Medicine at Oxbridge - to apply or not?

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

Hi all,
DS wants to study medicine. He has 10 A*s, 4As at AS and is taking 4 A levels. His UKCAT was 700. His careers teacher is keen that he applies to Oxford or Cambridge. DS is very laid back and relaxed, but unsure whether to give it a go or not. He is worried that - as medicine is so hard to get into - it could waste a choice.
So, could anyone answer the following questions:

1. Would a degree in medicine from Oxbridge be advantageous to his career?
   
2. Would the course be 'all work and no play'?
   
3. Would studying for the BMAT be a lot of extra work or would it benefit him academically?
   
4. Does Oxbridge produce better doctors?
   
5. He attends a state school and we both work - however - I have read stories that tickets for balls are around £100 each. As he would have to take a loan to pay the fees, I am concerned that there would be a lot of 'extras' which he could not afford. Is this the case?
   

I attended a RG university and do not know anyone who has been to Oxbridge. I would be very grateful for opinions regarding the above.

[Libra]

Re Dundee, Aberdeen and Glasgow - they definitely all interview.

We took DS1 down to Dundee on Saturday to start his medicine course. He finally decided on Dundee (was offered Dundee, Glasgow and Aberdeen) based on the interview there. Much preferred it to the other two, so I know that they interview!!

Dundee's interviews are very different from the other two because it was a series of ten 'stations' that he had to move around. At some stations he had to 'role play', for example dealing with a patient with no English. At others he had short interviews focusing on a particular subject, ie what he did in his spare time; at others he had to present an argument about something. Each station lasted seven minutes.

Dundee uses this approach in its exams as well. DS1 was so impressed by the way the interview was conducted he immediately decided that Dundee was the place for him - previously he had been leaning towards Glasgow.

So the interviews are very important in terms of the applicant assessing the university as well as the other way round.

I know that Dundee is very popular with NI students - there are two NI medical students in DS's flat with him. Good luck to your son wherever he goes and good luck to you too - having lived through the application process last year I know that it is a nerve-racking and exhausting procedure!

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

Libra - Yes, I think Edinburgh is the only Scottish school that does not interview. It is brilliant to hear that attending interview helped your son to decide where to go. TBH I hadn't thought of the interviews in that way. He did so well getting three offers - hats off to him! I suppose I should be grateful that DS at least knows he wants to do medicine. Some of his friends don't even know which subject they want to study!

Oxbridge have generous bursaries which is an incentive. But as I said before he would be delighted to get into any of the Scottish universities.

Thank you so much for your good wishes.

[Yellowtip]

No I got that OP :)

Since your DS is coming some distance he really should stay overnight. He just won't get the benefit of the Open Day otherwise. There's a chance that if he phones up, some colleges may still have accomodation. They don't charge and spending a night in college with current students on hand is very useful in itself. If all else fails there are reasonable(ish) B&Bs scattered around. Best to stay at the college he has a hunch he might apply to, if at all possible.

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

Yellowtip - Thanks for the tip regarding accommodation - I will get him to give them a ring.

[Libra]

DS was very impressed by Aberdeen as well, but did not want to go there because we live too close to it. Not so impressed by Glasgow - they seemed very disorganised this year. For example, inviting everyone to an open day for those holding offers but not managing to get the offers out until after that day. They also seem to have changed the course an awful lot over the last five years (which in my experience as a programme leader at another university might imply some problems. Change things gradually, yes. Change is always necessary for improvement. But constantly revamp the course year after year? Much related to a reduction in PBL I believe) So I was relieved when DS decided against it - but the decision was entirely his own!

DS also decided on Dundee because they integrate medical experience and patient experience right from the start and because they are one of the only universities that still offer dissection - again from very early on. He set off with his fees for his dissection gown and googles because they start anatomy from the beginning (yuck).

I really recommend the Student Room for support for this year. DS made quite a few friends on there who he then met up with at the various interviews and has arrived in Dundee knowing (it seems to me) at least half of the students from the course from the Student Room and then Facebook.

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

Libra - I think that using the Student Room for support is a great idea. I will pass on your advice. Thank you.

[Yellowtip]

You asked about pointers for colleges? Since at Oxford he'll get a second college selected by the computer, I'd have said take at least an element of control in selecting the first (as opposed to doing an open application). The former womens' colleges tend to take more medics on than the older colleges (exact numbers per college are on the website). As far as the older ones go, since you say he's relaxed, he may like Teddy Hall. Corpus Christi has a large medical endowment which has some advantages (there are far more fellows there than anywhere else). Magdalen is especially comfortable for open days (soaps/ towels) if he can get accomodation. I'm sure others will point him in other directions as well.

[Yellowtip]

Quite. And some of these blinkered white, educated, English speaking students do venture quite a way past Magdalen Bridge to do voluntary work tutoring young non (or barely) English speaking immigrants and asylum seekers. DD2 is one such student.

[Yellowtip]

Betelguese Oxford has one of the largest homeless populations of all cities in the UK. It's very visible as you say. Perhaps the homeless never get sufficiently ill to go to the JR for treatment. Mind you, they are mostly white and English speaking - and some will be educated no doubt.

[LittleFrieda]

Oxford and Cambridge don't use the UKCAT, their admissions test is the BMAT (UCL and Imperial also use BMAT). Unfortunately you don't get the results of the BMAT prior to applying. Applicants must apply for medicine by 15th October, register for the BMAT by September (from memory) and then they sit the BMAT (from memory) in early November and get the results a couple of weeks later.

Oxford places lots of emphasis on the BMAT, especially s.2. Some colleges score their applicants by alloting a percentage score of GCSEs at A* for half the mark and a score for their BMAT result for the remainder score. This is how they decide whom to invite to interview.

Lots of med schools operate UKCAT cut offs. At Sheffield for example, the cut off score for the previous two years for UKCAT has been 720, they don't invite people for interview under that score, no matter how good the rest of their application.

What are his A level subjects? The vast majority of Oxford medics study A levels Chemistry, Biology, Maths and something else on the Trinity list (preferably Physics). Were his AS results at A grade, well into th 90% plus scores?

Some med schools use neither the BMAT nor UKCAT. Birmingham med school for example relies heavily on applicants' GCSE profiles. I think the minimum for Birmingham last year was 8 A grades at GCSE, though most successful applicants had many more than 8 A.

If I were him I would research very carefully, as success in getting into medicine is as much about applying to the med schools that match your application strengths as it is about being excellent across the board.

[wehaveonlyjustbegun]

LittleFrieda- thank you for your comprehensive analysis of the different admission criteria. It is interesting that Sheffield on their website, state that they will look at all applications with a UKCAT above average. Nevertheless, as you have stated, there is information on the web that suggests they didn't interview below 720 last year. So that would rule him out.

DS has explained that the BMAT is sat after the UCAS form is finished. IMO it would be easier if they could sit the BMAT first and then make their choice.

Thank you for the advice - I will pass it on to DS.

[LittleFrieda]

My son is in his second year reading medicine. If you need to PM me, please do. Best of luck to your son.

[Yellowtip]

LittleFriedathe criteria that Oxford uses isn't quite as you've described. The formula used for working out the overall BMAT result is:

((Section 1 Score/9)0.4)+((Section 2 Score/9)0.4)+((Section 3 Content Score/5)0.22/3)+((Section 3 Quality Score/5)0.21/3) and multiply by 100 to get a percentage. S2 therefore isn't prioritized, at Oxford at least. This is then looked at together with the percentage of A*s achieved as a proportion of the total number of GCSEs taken, as moderated for school (is your DS at a grammar in N.I. OP? If so, his GCSEs may well be moderated down, slightly). Appplications at either extreme then either get rejected or go forward and those in the middle are examined more closely, with additional factors taken into account.

But all applications are dealt with by the Pre-Clinical Admissions Office, not by college and all interviews are conducted 'college blind'.

FWIW my own DS didn't do maths, he did History as his fourth A2. That helped him at interview I think.

www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/a100statistics

[kensingtonkat]

Sasshh You're talking out of your backside. Have you never heard of Blackbird Leys or the Bangladeshi community in Cowley? The residents of these areas make up much of the Oxford hospitals' clientele.

Wehave If there's one thing I could say about Oxbridge (I was at Oxford and DH is a tab) there are no better universities to be poor at. You can live in college accommodation, food is subsidised, there are hardship grants, there are huge numbers of travel grants and discretionary grants.

As for shelling out £300 for a Magdalen or New College Ball ticket, if you work at college balls or are part of the organising committee, you can go for free!

[LittleFrieda]

"Around 425 applicants are invited to Oxford for interview each year. A centralised short-listing process takes place which relies heavily on BMAT and GCSE performance (we look at the proportion of A* grades across all subjects taken, not including short courses)."

from here www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/study/medicine/pre-clinical/faqs

[Yellowtip]

Little Frieda the link I supplied has all the relevant detail, including how the BMAT is weighted, in case of doubt. I thought it might be useful to correct the idea that Section 2 is given more weight than Section 1. It's perhaps also useful to applicants to know that the selection process for interview has nothing whatsoever to do with the individual college.

Cambridge, I think, is different. More as you describe.

[Yellowtip]

BesideTheSeasidewhy not simply add your comments, rather than waiting to be asked? Where have you interviewed? Yes I'm sure that most members of interview panels are friendly - on the whole. But that probably has almost no bearing on how likely a candidate is to succeed, so adds little.

[Yellowtip]

To clarify, my question is: where did you interview? I was interested in the different interview styles last year at the various place DS had interviews at.

[LittleFrieda]

Yellowtip - The selection process for shortlisting is centralised, but the individual colleges do have the final say over whom they select as medical students. When the candidates are interviewed by their selected college and randomly selected college, many colleges places heavy emphasis on s.2 as it is the score which most closely mirrors success in the course, before making the offer. Although the interview is BMAT blind, they do see all information on the applicants before making or not making an offer.

My sons' headmaster says he can predict who will be successful medicine applicant to Oxford as soon as he sees the BMAT results and it's all about s.2.

Cambridge is entirely different and I don't know much about it. I know they aren't overly interested in GCSEs, it's all about AS scores and I have no idea how they use the BMAT results.

My son went to seven med school interviews and he was successful in all of them. I've been round the block with med school applications.