Oxford NOT JUST for the rich

[sieglinde]

I was fascinated by this. Oxford is in fact only 12th in this list of unis for the rich, measured by the number of students with student loans.

Unis which are often seen as Sturdier and More Sensible - Nottingham, Glasgow, Manchester - actually have a higher proportion of rich students.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8882007/Universities-with-the-richest-students-or-parents.html?image=11

True. And tbh Oxford is large enough that whatever floats your boat you will be able to find those with similar interests.

Regarding admissions - the best bit of advice I was given from my (state) school was not to be afraid to show what I had read. It was relatively easy because the entrance exam was designed to provide an opportunity to show wider than A level reading, but even at interview our school advised us to do the same (and I did). And despite comments up thread about how difficult it is for state school applicants to read around, it really isn't. You can read during a tea break, or for ten minutes before going to sleep. Whatever your area there are so many books that extend A level or general knowledge whilst still being easy to read around it's easy. Before my Oxford interview I read some Dawkins, some Stephen Jay Gould and various other books on the life sciences, as well as flicking through the new scientist at school. Lately I've become interested in history and philosophy and have had no problem finding books to read that increase my knowledge without being too academic.

Even 20 years ago I was told that tutors were more interested in evidence of reading around and a genuine interest in a subject than A level knowledge. (Of course A levels had to be of a certain standard). Given the numbers applying all with excellent academic results demonstrating interest by reading around has to be a good way to separate out people - and really that is very easy for state school students to match.

Yes, sorry, very true. Reading about the subject really helps and because the interviews are in Dec it helps to be reading around the subject in the summer.

The other thing that helps is going to interesting talks on the subject by national or local branches of societies. This is partly because such talks broaden the horizon and encourage thinking outside the box. This means that searching interview questions are less likely to be disconcerting.

We are currently looking at universities for DS1 (Year 12) and went to Maths open days at both Cambridge and Oxford. Have never been given the impression that it's not for the likes of DS (state comprehensive educated). However, one thing that may put people off is the need to choose a college to apply to rather than just putting the university. Unless you have a family or school connection to a particular college, how on earth can you choose between them?

Oxford does now offer the option of making an open application, rather than choosing a college, and I think that's what he'll probably go for.

3boys1cat - one way to choose is to look at the number of students in the chosen subject at each college - then choose a college with a large number - it shows the subject is strong at that college. Also of course going to open days and meeting as many college tutors as possible - if you find one you really like it makes the application easier.

Saintlyjims, that's excellent advice, and also write to the tutors from the open day...

Agree too. Numbers count. It also helps socially once in. Agree about tutors: if at the Open Days a tutors creeps you out, apply elsewhere. If he or she appeals, try there. sieglinde you frequently counsel making personal contact with tutors but surely that would merely flag an applicant as a suck up? Why write? What could it achieve?

3boys the open application option simply takes all control out of an applicant's hands. If he's a strong applicant he should look at the things saintly suggests and apply to the college he feels would be his best fit, having had a good snoop in June. Up thread sieglinde referred to the different character of the colleges. An open application may felicitously direct him to his college of choice but much more likely will allocate him to a less popular college, thus wresting control from him, and why? The more popular colleges are good at placing strong applicants elsewhere, so there seems to be very little to be gained from an open application - maybe someone else has a different take?

Its hard to go round all the colleges as there are so many. However they are different and it is important for the student to apply to the college they like the feel of. Small vs large for example. Famous and tourist ridden vs cosy and private. More importantly, meet the tutors. They are very different and will the main person teaching the student so may as well apply to the college where the student likes the tutor and is interested in the things they are interested in.
The student should choose the college, not the parent.

Very bright brown and black people need to gear up and put on armour to cope with rejection before applying and be aware that even if they get there, Oxford is far less multicultural than London University. There is a bit going on: Diwali ball, Bollywood play, Indian classical dance society all teetering to exist, but Cambridge is more sociable in this regard.

Yellow, I get emails all the time and never really think of them as a suckup, because they are usually seeking information.

Of course there's a clumsiness factor, but some of my best students did weird contortions - I remember one boy who came in to the room for interview and announced he'd read all my books - and he had, too. Suckup? Yes, but ambitious, too, and he got the top Distinction in Mods, and a top first later. I wouldn't recommend it, but I wouldn't dismiss much more flagrant stuff than a shy email. Note to all - of course we didn't take him because of this! Just saying it didn't rule him out.

I prefer to hear from candidates and not from schools or parents. To me it's no different to attending an open day. If they want to know something, why not ask?

Legit questions sure, but you said go to the Open Day and then write too. Also, almost every conceivable question must surely be answered on the Oxford website. I'm probably just an old cynic, but I'd have thought some parents or students will do this as a look at my child/ me sort of exercise, which is a waste of tutors' time.

Dangerous game that, declaring that he'd read your books!

Do parents really write to you sieglinde? Does that happen a lot? That's bizarre. My parents were completely uninvolved in my application other than bringing me the odd cup of tea when I was revising. They would never have contacted a college on my behalf.

I can see that candidates emailing sensible questions is completely different and not to be discouraged.

@ saintly: memorably, after GCSE results last Aug, one Mner e-mailed a vast number of Cambridge colleges - fifteen? - asking each the same question (a relatively simple one, whose answer is on the website in any event). It was clear from the replies (which she posted) that she had gone to some lengths to introduce her DC and outline her DC's recent achievements (because in almost every case the tutor replied 'Of course we can't promise [your DC] a place and you should be aware that competition for [this subject] is particularly fierce....'.

My DC would kill me.

sieglinde I don't know Princeton's percentage of low income students offhand but suspect it is also higher then Oxford's. Harvard's certainly is, regardless of any policy on preferring alumni's children.

The uptake of loans by rich parents is of no relevance to the numbers getting full financial support, by definition the children of the rich don't. The Student Loan company publishes some national figures for easy comparison. Oxford could easily publish good information but you quote a newspaper article you know to be misleading. It isn't worth discussing this further with you because you want to conceal the truth not reveal it.

how bizarre! There is no way I'd do that for ds2 and ds3. If they decide they want to go to university they can sort it out themselves. Asides from the embarrassment factor!

That story I will tell my DD and DS as I never did that. They might think I am less crazy then.
I admit sending a happy photo of DD and her granny when she got her grades though - I sent it to the college admissions tutor and the subject tutor to say thank you!

Regarding do the rich have any advantage when applying.
Well I think the answer as far as I am aware is definitely not.
As far as I am aware the grades are judged against the average for the school (I think there is some sort of weighting thingy but I am not sure) and so if the student's grades are excellent for that school then an A can be as good as an A star. Then there are flags for particular disadvantage, for example a child looked after, or a child receiving free school meals. Then there are other things taken into account, for example did the child attend a Sutton trust summer school.
But above all the Oxford entrance tests and interviews as far as I can see are not based on any particular syllabus so if a student has read loads and loads and is a geek it wont matter what school they went to or what the family income is- it is the attitude to learning that counts: and not being afraid to learn but on the contrary wanting to learn, and being a quick learner.

However where there could be a difference is in the confidence to apply, confidence at interview, the reliability of the school reference, and the quality of the written work. Also the ability to cope with a variety of opportunity once there and not loose one's head. Those things may well be school and family dependent. Thats why a bright child from a less well off background needs more confidence.

It is worth sending in really good written work. Sounds obvious but some people think it is OK to send in any old class essay and don't realise it is important to send in a really good one.

Sieglinde, even Mansfield's a big ask? I think Mansfield is lovely. (Disclaimer: it's not my college, but lovely nonetheless.)

Mansfield is lovely.
So is Wadham.

The pastoral care is v v good. College 'parents' really do help the first years find their feet, esp with first essays (which have to be done in the first week) and at exam time making sure they fill in all the forms and the 'parents' give them coloured carnations to put in their uniform (subfusc) when they take their exams, and find them second hand text books and make sure they get over fifth week blues and make sure they take tutorials seriously. Phenomenal. Tell all the bright DC that all the hard work is worth it and apply. No harm in overwhelming the tutors with excellent candidates. Wadhamites are very highly academic, interested in theatre and music (they have their own concert hall) and croquet, dont give a stuff about balls so they dont have one, and they sing 'Free Nelson Mandela' regularly, even though he is free. It is clearly the best college. It is very beautiful. But you have to be outstanding at your subject to be offered a place.

I know lot of bright Asian students deselect themselves from Oxbridge.
funnyperson why do you say that brown and black students need to gear up and have an armour to face rejection?

3boys asked how a student chooses a college. DD1 applied to the college funny says is clearly the best because she looked at numbers (saintly), saw her subject was strong, and thought something was pointing her there if anywhere because the college was set up by a phenomenal lady called Dorothy who lived in a biggish house just up the road. Dorothy's husband's mum has a pretty memorial in our church, so there was a tenuous link. Dorothy set up the college entirely by letter, remotely, from a couple of hundred miles away, never visiting it once. She was seventy or so at the time. With regards to rich people and Oxford, although going back some way, Dorothy wrote in a letter that she had no wish whatsoever to set up a scholarship scheme for boys from St. Paul's: she wanted the college to be for poor and ordinary students from her 'own county'. As for balls, when Wadham had a fine one to celebrate 400 years, a clutch of fellows (includng the Warden) came down to our village to escape the noise on the night in question, excusing their absence by saying they were celebrating Dorothy on her home patch that weekend (they went back once all the students had had a chance to be scraped up from the various lawns and everything put back in its place :)).

I went to Mansfield. Very welcoming to state schoolers. I was poor, but went to loads of balls and wore lovely dresses. Got into a lot of debt though ;)

I remember in my first year going to a ball at St Hilda's and having a girl look me up and down when I said which college I was from and stating: 'Mansfield? Nobody goes to Mansfield...' If my dc want to apply to Oxford I will heartily recommend little Mansfield.

Interesting- Dorothy was clearly an inspiration.

goingtobefree Oxford is not as multicultural as elsewhere in the country. This applies to the student body and even more so to the faculty. Thus the chances of a brown or black student being interviewed by a brown or black tutor are practically nil. Thus the chances of being interviewed by someone culturally sympathetic are very slim. The subconscious on such occasions for both parties can result in an even more embarrassingly stilted interview than normal and the student will not do himself/herself justice. This will result in a rejection. Hence the need for armour.
The ways round it are as follows: pretend one is a very very bright coconut with vision. Explain to the students who show you round at interview that your parents did not want you to apply to Oxford (to avoid the prejudiced view that the brown /black student is only there because of the tiger mum) and that you are here only because you didn't want to go to Harvard or Princeton where your parents wanted you to go. The demonstration of vision and a knowledge of the broader picture is essential to avoid the prejudiced view that brown and black people cannot think outside the box. In the personal statement activities which demonstrate how much of a team player the student is are important to avoid the prejudice that the articulate brown or black person is aggressive.
Also the brown or black person must realise that the non brown or black person who gets an offer has worked very very hard to do so and there are no short cuts and playing the race card will not wash.