Oxford NOT JUST for the rich

[sieglinde]

I was fascinated by this. Oxford is in fact only 12th in this list of unis for the rich, measured by the number of students with student loans.

Unis which are often seen as Sturdier and More Sensible - Nottingham, Glasgow, Manchester - actually have a higher proportion of rich students.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8882007/Universities-with-the-richest-students-or-parents.html?image=11

I was going to post the same as Mary. I don't know exactly how student loans work now, as I am too old and my kids too young, but when I went to university (not Oxford) several of my wealthier friends had taken out the full available loan and their parents had invested in, as the interest rate they could get was much higher than the interest rate charged by the loan company.

If this is still going on, surely it would skew figures based on loan uptake.

Cross-posted :(

metabilis - I didn't go to a formal hall once in my time at college either (Oxford). This talk of loads of formals and balls etc is something I don't recognise tbh. As I said I went to a lot of club back tie events, but wore my top shop dress with thick black tights, often with DM shoes (blardy students) and went on the whole because the drink was cheaper. They weren't exclusive events.

I think my college had formal hall once a week, it was the same price as regular hall - the only difference was you didn't queue up to get the food and people would bring alcohol in, but it wasn't something people went to regularly as it took too long. I may have gone once or twice.

I have eaten on high table, but that was a number of years after I'd left when I was going out with a JRF.

Oh I contradicted myself there - I actually can't remember whether I went to formal hall and I was interrupted by dh ringing half way through my post. I think I might have but it's such a hazy memory I'm not sure whether it's an imagined one.

@Yellow Beats me! I'm pretty sure I didn't know anyone at Peterhouse. And I know I've never known anyone who went to Magdalen.

Interesting that you say there's no preference. I'm definitely hearing differently at the moment - I know some older kids there not because of DD1 but because of various music stuff. Hard to say whether DD1 is on track academically for one or the other anyway (you know what it's like there, they are all much of a muchness, and even though we probably get more feedback than most because of her SEN issues, it's not really that helpful) but even if she is she's by no means sure it's what she wants although the fact that she has started to talk about it (after a comment by her plan B subject teacher) is ....interesting.

For myself I'm presently entirely unconvinced it would be a good idea to even try. Which just goes to show how the years have ground the optimism out of me.

And Oxford provides overnight accomodation free for students and teachers coming from a distance away; Cambridge doesn't

Cambridge doesn't have a generous three day stay as at Oxford, but my daughter paid 15 pounds for overnight accomodation and food at a Cambridge College for last Summer's Open Day and was put up overnight in a College free of charge for her interview. Her travelling time was 2 1/2 hours.

@rosinante It would take between 4-5 hours from here. This is due to a political conspiracy to keep the Proper South West subjugated. As I said, I'm far from convinced it'll be an issue for us although DD1 was quite keen for me to accept an invitation to a thing at my old college in the summer so she could look round etc. Sadly I'm performing in a concert that day so we can't go.

I'm far from convinced it'll be an issue for us

I said the same until three months before the interview, then someone lit the touchpaper....you never can tell...

I've not done an in-depth analysis of whether geography affects the choice of whether to go east or west, mainly because if they're not staying at home, geography is a bit irrelevant to me. I do know that the leavers from independents I have experience of tend substantially towards Oxford [about 2:1], and the schools are probably better able to polish up pupils not doing hard sciences, so the difference in prep shows. They also have excellent tactics on how many to apply for each college in the various subjects, and strongly steer their pupils to reduce intra-school competition. The visibly stellar mathematicians and scientists invariably go for Cambridge. Now that a couple of my own have joined the state sector, their schools, who send regularly, also seem to do better east than west. The gap in those areas appears far easier to bridge for even badly taught pupils with great promise than in the arts and humanities. The others are attracted by the likes of Harvard because of the support. I think Oxford will hold an attraction because of the solidness of its general product, but it has stronger competition at the top. That may mean morebeta's friend will find it easier to sustain her approach to recuiting.

Um, thirdhill, those 'tactics' on how many to each college don't always work. I have taken two people from the same school in my subject, and really, the nice calculations cut very little real ice. All decisions are made at subject level before there is a general college meeting. IME, lots of indy schools think they can game it more than they really can, and with more and more reallocation and in medicine a single admissions board, college choice can't be reliably gamed anymore. Sorry...

I do know that the leavers from independents I have experience of tend substantially towards Oxford [about 2:1]

I notice from Sutton Trust info that certain famous schools (Eton for example, among others, such as Wycombe Abbey) sends twice as many students to Oxford as to Cambridge. (60 to Oxford with 30 to Cambridge approx) There is a feeling among my OE friends (not a huge sample of course) with children at that school that Oxford will be more sympathetic towards them. Clearly Sieglinde is a tutor who prefers to choose from a different section of society, but is it just a nice warm feeling that they have or?

It cannot be only geographical preference, as my dc is educated at a school only an hour from Oxford, yet the numbers attending each university are similar, showing a very slight bias towards Oxford.

I think Oxford will hold an attraction because of the solidness of its general product, but it has stronger competition at the top

Sorry Thirdhill, but I'm not sure what you mean?

@Rosinante she wants to do something even more competitive and 'not for the likes of us' - music conservatoire. We shall see.

music conservatoire
Oh I see. Well all the best!

Yeah. In Amsterdam. Not going to happen (for reasons primarily financial but also - I just can't see her really going that far when it comes to it).

sieglinde, please don't apologize, it must be good news if you find the college choice game more unreliable than before. Strange though that, despite that, it is still 2:1 west to east for indies and at least that proportion in reverse for the state. Perhaps it's just habit, for schools and pupils both? It makes the gap between badly schooled and well-polished talent seem less insurmountable at Cambridge. Perception counts for a lot for most 18 year olds.

I think it must be at least encouraging to have admissions tutors like yourself. However the competition from the other side of the pond and Cambridge both with the apparent less elitist reputation must be a challenge. Do you find that factor much changed, recently?

I only mentioned geography because it's possible to do an Open Day trip from where we are to Oxford but much less easy to Cambridge, particularly given the additional cost. Of course that doesn't prevent individual students going on their own - many do.

What happens in Amsterdam Metabilis? She must be brilliant.

The older ones that you're talking to are drawing the wrong conclusion. Historically the success rate has been greater at Oxford than Cambridge - in some years significantly so - but there are signs that its evening up. I think there may simply be a tendency at schools which have had a particular trend for students to follow that trend in applying, so it becomes self-fulfilling. I think the same trend may be true for individual subjects too, with some subjects at Cambridge seeming to attract more applications on the whole than the same subject at Oxford, even though overall numbers applying are less.

@Yellowtip No, she isn't brilliant. :D But the very very best place to study her first study instrument is probably still the Conservatorium in Amsterdam. Like I said, this is plan A right now (she's only just 14) so I don't expect it to be the plan that eventually gets followed. When I was 14 I was going to go to a conservatoire too, I had no doubt in my mind at all. Till I realised the financial implications.

thirdhill, my impression is that the greatest change of late is that Cambridge asks for A at A-Level in the humanities and Oxford doesn't. It's under pressure though, and the Ox Central Admin def. wants us to start asking for A.

I haven't noticed much Ivy League braindrainage. Despite promises, most are very deterred by the fees.

Yes, it's much BETTER that colleges and schools DON'T have the cosy relations as in days of yore, but this also means there are NO safe bets for weaker applicants anymore. No places for jolly rowers doing forestry.. though I do know a jolly rower who was being courted by Yale.

I mean, even Mansfield is a tough ask nowadays. One college in my subject interviewed 40 plus second choice people this year and only took 2 of its original list of first-choice applicants.

I know from outside Oxbridge looks like the place with power, but from within some are hagridden by Norrington Table results, and some colleagues are put under a lot of pressure about this.

St Hugh's ball pictures:
No thick black stockings and clumpy shoes in sight and over 1000 Oxford students
richersea.co.uk/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=10218

Charity website for the school in Nepal where 7 non ball attending Oxford students and 7 non ball attending Cambridge students will be teaching this summer. My DD included. Please feel free to donate a min of £2.00 if you would like.( or not, of course)
www.justgiving.com/Nepal2012-TravelAid?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socspon&utm_content=Nepal2012-TravelAid&utm_campaign=post-sponsor-facebook

I said I wore clumpy shoes and thick black tights at back tie events (plenty of those at St Hugh's). Which were mainly not posh at all - just a cheap way drink. I did manage a frock and ladies shoes for the ball I paid to go to. Although for the one we crashed, in the survivors photo, I am wearing LBD - the one from top shop that I lived in, canvas pumps (to climb in :idiot:) and a grey cardigan from a charity shop.

Oh that smile should be there - should be :idiot: i.e I was one

I don't think non ball goers are likely to have a monopoly of grace funny. I might as well throw into the mix the fact that DD1 spent last summer teaching in the Far East on an Oxford and Cambridge programme. Several of her friends, who were all without exception at the Wadham quadcentenary ball the previous year, were volunteers too. As it happens, one of mine is borrowing another's dress and a second got her dress for next to nothing in a vintage shop. Almost all of the students work extremely hard; I'm very glad for them to have their post-exam shared moments of fun.

I attended 1 May Week in my 4 years in Cambridge. But I never spent the summer doing Good Deeds in Nepal. I always had to work :(

It's a little depressing that this thread has become one about balls and gowns.

Honestly, most admissions/subject tutors don't care about those things at all. We really don't ask ourselves [worried frown] at admissions if young Jack will fit in socially or if he owns a black jacket or can tie his own bow tie.

My own view is that I don't care what my students do as long as they work to capacity - that is, they can play croquet, or lie on the floor of the bar, as long as they keep up academically and don't become unhappy. Whatever floats their boat is fine.