Parent of oxbridge candidate-peersupportneeded

[funnyperson]

OK so my DD is applying to Oxford for entry in 2011 and has a 75% chance of getting rejected so I am told by the Oxford website so I reckon a new thread would be helpful for us parents who may end up with joy or grief but in any event need to keep sane enough to support our loved ones. Any tips on maximising chances of success at this stage?

Agree about the not needing to spend a lot of time doing hard work thing if gifted.
Having said that even the very bright need to do a bit of work to get the detail right- though it doesn't seem like work to them (us).
Agree that bright children in state comps might not get as good results as indy and I think this should be taken account of in offers.
However I think this is down to organisation and attitude rather than teaching or resources given the internet is available eg tutor2u etcetc.
Getting good marks at gcse /A level provided the child is reasonably intelligent is all about the mark scheme and wise learning.
Agree a bit of spare money is needed to go to societies.
Agree the offer holders haven't got their grades yet but its nice to see DD motivated. DS lost all interest at this stage last year.
We still wonder if Oxford has made a mistake.
Don't know what else to say except there didn't seem to be many Cambridge mums/dads on this thread

Actually I think I am a bit under the weather this morning. In fact I know little about how to get good marks at A level these days except it is vital to print off the syllabus/exam spec at the outset and the biology is not difficult at all.

I am still a bit reeling from the Eton thread on mumsnet. It would appear that the preparation for Oxbridge in effect begins at age 7 or so because by the time prep boys have reached 13 they are at GSCE standard and by the time the Westminster/Eton boys are gcse age they are A level standard and so the Oxbridge interview reading/prep is not such a hassle as for those in other schools.

DD school is not driven at all. Other people say it is but it is not because the girls are bright they enjoy learning fast and if DD is anything to go by, would get very bored if they didn't. However the pace is very fast indeed as the A level syllabus is completed by Feb. So if a child is ill or looses concentration for even a week or two, that becomes a real problem. Some one like DD tends to remember what is said in class a lot so if she misses class that is a big issue for maths

Betelguese I think you and your DS find maths easy. Some of that is perhaps because you have used it at graduate level. Its a bit the same when I read DD biology text book as I have read many of the topics at grad level. Maths is not so easy to pick up from books or the internet, especially integration and stats. You can practice it from the internet or books but the initial understanding has to be taught. The best maths teachers are probably young recent graduates as they don't take the concepts for granted.

The difference in pace once at Oxford/Cambridge is something only become apparent to me recently.
It doesn't apply to medicine.
I find it worrying that a history undergrad at Oxford might be expected to do 20-40 essays a term whereas a London undergrad might do 4 a term.
The analytical skills of the Oxford grad will suffer through superficial skim reading. The analytical skills of the London grad will suffer through lack of practice. Who determines standards of the humanities nationally?

Success in an Oxford Interview:
The difference between DS and DD when presented with unfamiliar material or an unfamiliar situation orally is that DS thought as he didn't know anything about the topic he had nothing to say. Cue to freeze.
DD brought first principles to bear and tried to analyse it bit by bit with the interviewers help and asked questions to help her through.
DS did very well however in the written test- also unfamiliar material. It was the interview which challenged.

So what is the difference? I think it is something to do with the interaction between interviewer and interviewee. Reading around helps because then the young person comes cross lots of different points of view and different scenarios so unfamiliarity becomes less threatening and the language is likely to be more familiar. Also there might be examples or evidence that the young person could refer to. Oral discussion must help- and the chance to put one's point of view across, have it challenged, and then modify it or justify it orally. If an opportunity to practice this informally does not arise then I suspect the person is unlikely to succeed in an Oxford interview.
Then again who am I to say? Many people do a 'good' interview and don't get an offer. What do others think?

What do you mean by 'good' interview, Funnyperson? People of ten think their interview went well when it didn't, and think it went badly when it was good. Your DD did just the right thing/s, btw. Good advice there.

Were the classics group Latinists, Hellenists, or Class Civ?

Now to the much more difficult topic of undergraduate essays and the dsparity betwen Oxford and other places.

Not all Oxford essays are weekly tute essays, which are really more like position papers. Some are 6000-10000 word pieces for assessment. You can't skim-read for those and the standard is normnally higher than for Masters submissions.

I have taught and examined at many Russell Group places and standards at Oxford are MUCH higher. Essentially an Ox 2.1 would get a first ein most other places. They should be higher, too; the programmes cost a lot more. Nobody says so publically because not all bright kids can go to Oxbridge. External examining is supposed to ensure parity but if you are known as a bit of a hardass- strict marker you're apt to find you don't get many invitations.

Finally, funnyp, A-Levels and GCSEs are all geared to tickbox marking that actually disadvantages anyone with ideas.

sieglinde, my DS thought his interview went badly & he was right

He is very bright, but too lazy laid-back for Oxford, so it's just as well really. I don't think he was even aware of the work-load involved; if he had been he wouldn't have applied

Sieglinde and Ponders - mine too.

My DS did have benefit of practice interviews (at his school, with a "stranger" at an associated school and with two ex PPE graduates), although I wonder if the practice in fact back fired on him. At each of the practice interviews he rose to the challenge of people trying to catch him out with "hard" concepts or specific ideas. He could generally cope with those OK, by applying knowledge and seeing how far he could work things out. I think that threw him for the actual interview which (allegedly) started with a "So. What would you like to talk about?". Yes, I know with hindsight such a question arguably presents a real opportunity but I think a nervous teenage boy just froze and then came up with what he later felt was too obvious a topic.... Maybe without the so called expert practice interviews he might have thought ( or I might have suggested thinking) of a topic for just that sort of question. I'm sure it wasn't just that, and DS I know would interview nowhere near as well as DD1 since he is shy and very straightforward and rather economical with his answers, but it was a shame he felt wrong footed ... then again, maybe it is the student who doesn't get wrong footed/ or who has the ability not to panic a little who are the right types for Oxford.

When I interviewed prospective solicitors for my firm it was very often the girls who interviewed better.Why is that do you think? Do you find that sieglinde?

Re workload - yes, DD1 has come across that - she is astonished at the difference in essays expected of her friends at say leeds and Manchester reading English like her and what she has to do for her Oxford college. Am just back from returning her to her house and her two housemates already back but in the library....and funny, I took a detour out to wadham, tis indeed very lovely. But, as DD1 pointed out - no Hogwarts dinners in your great hall.....

Ponders, where is your DS thinking of going now - my DS inclining towards York but not yet heard from Durham (which is a bit of a worry?)and I think he may favour the college way of life if he has the choice.

Hi, fififi!

DS's only options are still just York & Sheffield atm - no news from LSE yet, but the odds are very much against him. I'm hoping he will also incline towards York - he has a departmental open day there the week before half-term, with Sheffield's during half-term.

He is also supposed to be choosing a 5th to apply to before the 15th, but I don't imagine any of them would make an easier offer than the AABs he has already; & none of them appealed to him, apparently, when he was applying in the first place (although he did do it in a bit of a rush in order to get it in for the Ox deadline, having been being lazy laidback about completing the form, writing the PS etc....)

Your DS has an offer from York now then? I think he still hadn't had any the last time I saw a post from you so that's good news! Any others? I think Durham is like LSE & makes most applicants wait until after the 15th when they're all in, so fingers crossed - if he does want a college-based uni then Durham would be favourite, I know York has "colleges" but they're only more-organised halls really, aren't they??? (I base this purely on having glanced through some of the bumf he's had from there so I'm probably wrong )

York and Exeter I think...

Not heard from Warwick either which is a a bit unnerving, that was his firm acceptance last year - and he easily achieved their offer grades. His school said there is no evidence at all to suggest that a university which has been turned down after its offer hasgone unconditional will hold that against the candidate when s/he applies again if s/he decides on a gap year ( or , whispers, to try for Oxbridge)...but I do wonder. If they wanted him last year, why not this?

Also the son of a friend of mine, applying last year had a deferred place for Durham 2011 ( he had all along wanted a gap year) but hadn't got into Cambridge. He tried for Cambridge again , and in so doing had to pull out of Durham and apply again afresh ( even though his place had been for 2011 in any event) and was rejected by Durham almost immediately.

I know it could all be because of a high standard of applicants this year/ increased numbers but it was a shock for said boy.

DS is away at the moment, bet he's forgotten about the departmental open day ...or was there also a date in March?

Do girls interview better? Not necessarily. Some boys are VERY slick. I'd also say 45 hours of work per week will only get you a 2.1, not a 1st - except in Maths...

There were other dates for the open day - hang on, will get DS2's letter....

well I'm glad you gave me the nudge to do that, fififi - I thought he'd accepted by email (he could for Sheffield) but apparently you have to post the slip in & he's just handed it to me

Anyway the dates are 16 Feb, 2 Mar & 16 Mar. It's a pink letter, along with a yellow page about the parents' programme.

Oh that is weird - he's just said is Exeter too far? What a coincidence! Apparently Thom Yorke (his current musical hero) went there. It is a long way from here, but there are flights from Manchester, & Exeter is another place I love to visit...

They might want AAA though.

(re girls - they do talk more as a rule which might lead to a more lively interview!)

Thanks Ponders....

Tell Ponders DS that not only did Thom Yorke go to Exeter but so too did the poster on mumsnet known as fififi.That should swing it for him....

45 hours work a week not enough. Blimey. Wonders about DD1s work average . No wonder her tutors aren't particularly sympathetic to pleas for extensions after a weekend travelling to a sports fixture or similar.

She looked so happy though to be going back today - she couldn't help but smile when that view of rolling hills comes into view from the M40, then on the approach over Magdalen Bridge to the High Street and finally as I parked ( illegally - but was for just a moment I promise sieglinde and other dons who may be lurking still) outside her little house...

Btw, thanks to both funnyp and sieglinde for offering to give their thoughts re a possible psychology degree for DD2. I will take you up on it/get DD2 to contact you but for now we're arguing the toss over the rights and wrongs of genetic testing which seems to be what GCSE Biology is all about. I'm sure I recall having to be able to recite all the bones of the vertebra - something which has never subsequently come up over the dinner table as a topic of conversation...

Fififi, it's enough for a 2.1 but not for a first. I'm hideously unsympathetic about extensions because in this system it's very hard to make up for lost time. As term approaches I shall withdraw but do get in touch if I can help

Ahh sieglinde, you are very kind...DD herself doesn't need an extension ( so far as I know , don't suppose she'd tell me!) - but she did tell a story over Christmas about one of her friends who is captain of the college lacrosse team who fell a bit behind with her work, after a weekend spent travelling to Durham or somewhere for a match and met with an unsympathetic response.

DD is pleased to be in a house with third years, she says, because it makes her work harder than she might otherwise in the second year. She loves her subject and I feel sure that will see her through. I will ask her about her average week though.

Have a great term if we don't hear from you.

Sieglinde
Am briefly in to say the classicists were a mixture
one latinist plus hellenist
two latin plus class civ
one class civ
one applied for modern and medieval languages ??? very sad she was rejected very very bright child but cried at/just after interview.

am madly busy at the moment but quieter later in the week not being rude but good luck good luck to anyone still waiting

agree fififi think my DS might be better off where he is but then you never know do you- often young people prefer the challenge and do get a bit bored if there is too little to do

no news from nephew.

York's colleges are halls of residence and the halls are all very very close to each other. Lovely place. I go up there yearly to a conference.

"often young people prefer the challenge and do get a bit bored if there is too little to do"

not mine, funnyp - he can easily fill hours empty of academe. sometimes he even engages his brain

oh Ponders I rather suspect mine might be the same - I rang him just now and he is in the bar i e not finishing the two essays due in at the end of the week which he was supposed to do in the holidays. My mum would have been really cross but I only managed a feeble 'dont make yourself ill darling and remember to hand in two copies of each with the cover sheet and no the deadline isn't the 17th dear I know very well it is the 14th'
I did make him and his girlfriend sit down and write all the deadlines for coursework for the whole term on his new wall calendar in front of my mum when we went to drop him off for the new term.
But that is all he is getting. I am too busy to do anything else and dont remember the dates of the others anyway.

not in the bar! & him a student? goodness me!