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Guest Post: "Mumsnet was the first safe place I had to realise my own agency - now I am campaigning to end forced marriage"

84 replies

JuliaMumsnet · 08/03/2021 12:49

Yehudis Fletcher and Eve Sacks on their journey to co-founding Nahamu, which seeks to raise awareness and challenge forced marriage in the Jewish community.

Eve speaks

In Pixar’s Brave, the heroine is Princess Merida, and the film’s protagonist is her mother, Queen Elinor, who is forcing her to get married. Under UK law, you have the right to choose who you marry, when you marry or if you marry at all. Forced marriage is when you face physical pressure to marry (for example, threats, physical violence or sexual violence) or emotional and psychological pressure (e.g. if you’re made to feel like you’re bringing shame on your family). Merida’s mother applies emotional pressure, saying she will let down her clan by not following the tradition. Watching Brave whilst I was researching and writing a paper on forced marriage, meant it was obvious to me that the arrangements for Merida would be criminal under UK law.

The crux of the forced marriage issue for me is the question - should religious parents be allowed to bring their children up in a closed system whereby all young people marry someone chosen by their parents, and where no other options are ever observed or presented?
I did not grow up in an insular community. When I was a teenager in Glasgow my friends were from a range of backgrounds, including traditional Jews like myself. But I had a glimpse into a more insular Jewish community as I knew some Charedi (Ultra-Orthodox Jewish) girls. These girls were home-schooled and did not mix with anyone outside their very small group (of around Charedi 10 families).

I attended a Sunday school with these girls. However, there was no opportunity to chat. There was a real but unspoken rule that we could not engage in open conversations, and the teacher was always present. The atmosphere was austere. We sat at the teacher’s large dining room table. We translated the Torah (Pentateuch) from biblical Hebrew into English.

When I was 16, one of the girls, a year older than me, got engaged to a young man she met once, just briefly, the first young man she had met. She would not see him again before the wedding. She was not allowed to speak to him on the phone. After the wedding she would move to Antwerp, shave her head and presumably have a large family. At the time I was working hard towards my highers, and considering my future career, and so I struggled to understand why anyone would agree to marry someone they’d met once, just briefly. But I could see that she had happily agreed to it.

10 years later I had graduated from the University of Manchester and I was living in London working as a chartered accountant. By this point, Yehudis was sitting around the same dining room table with the same teacher, translating the Torah with her peers, Charedi Glaswegian girls, many of whom were the younger sisters of the girls I had studied with. The difference was that Yehudis had a much more isolated upbringing than mine. The classes I attended on a Sunday morning were the type she attended all week.

Yehudis speaks

When I was a child, my mother told me that we didn’t believe in feminism and that each gender had their role to play. I always expected I would get married at 18, and I did. I saw it as my only route to adulthood, independence, and autonomy. I had no real idea what any of those words meant.

We are brought up from early childhood to marry the first person our parents suggest, and most of us go through with it without any question - because that is all we know. In my community, school books are redacted to ensure that any references to other ways of thinking are removed, public libraries are seen as dangerous and the internet is banned. We tend to only attend insular community schools, although some of these are state-funded, the curriculum is often restricted and Charedi children don’t mix with anyone different. There is no sex and relationship education until after young people are already engaged, so many don’t even think to question the matchmaking process. We are socialised to expect to marry someone we meet once. This is compounded by the huge emphasis on female modesty and gender segregation - so meeting more than ‘necessary’ is often considered immodest. No physical force is needed, but this is still a forced marriage.

In 2010, I was 22, married, and living in Edgware, North London. My son was a toddler and I was pregnant with my daughter. I discovered Mumsnet, where I was welcomed but also given a quick and brutal schooling in how the big wide world functioned. In one of my first posts, I asked for advice on how to manage my son’s diet, as he would only eat Shreddies. I regretted that one quickly! The constructs of intense othering that I had grown up with led me to quickly move on to confronting my own prejudices - Mumsnetters made quick work of my thread asking about the best way to ask for a white midwife.

Finally I asked ‘Does anyone else feel a duty to have sex with their husband?’ The thread started off light-hearted until suddenly it wasn’t. There seemed to be an awareness that this was an awakening for me.

It took years to get from that point to where I am now, having founded Nahamu and campaigning against forced marriage in my community, but I see Mumsnet as the first safe place I had to play with ideas and safely explore my curiosity.

Forced marriage, along with the other details of my life that I have shared, are often seen as faith-based or cultural practices. There is a nervousness in talking about it. Gatekeepers will try and deny there are any problems. We know that our community is far from the only one dealing with these issues. That is why we worked with the National Commission on Forced Marriage UK to raise awareness and why we wrote to the FMU asking for young people in our community to receive the same protection as other young people at risk of forced marriage. As the co-founders of Nahamu and authors of the first paper to address forced marriage in the Jewish community, we insist that young people, of every culture and faith, must have autonomy over who to marry, when to marry or whether to marry at all.

By Yehudis Fletcher and Eve Sacks.
Eve tweets at @EveSacks, Yehudis at @YehudisFletcher, and the Nahamu Project twitter handle is @PNahamu

From MNHQ: Eve and Yehudis have written this resource page on forced marriage for us, please take a look and share widely.

Eve and Yehudis will be returning to this thread to answer your questions for one hour on the 10th March at 10am, so if you have questions for them, leave them below.

Guest Post: "Mumsnet was the first safe place I had to realise my own agency - now I am campaigning to end forced marriage"
OP posts:
HoldontoOneMoreDay · 10/03/2021 13:45

My very existence within my community is a protest - I am not threatening to leave, I am threatening to stay.

You are both extraordinary, inspirational women. This quote has heartened me beyond measure. ThanksThanksThanks

frazzledasarock · 10/03/2021 16:45

[quote Notallowedtogo]@EveSacks Thank you for responding to me. Yes, I agree with you. But I guess my point is that most girls will not be aware that they are being coerced and may even argue that it is their choice.

I wish you luck with all your campaigning and do admire you and think you are very brave to be out there campaigning from within.[/quote]
This is what I've found to be so true.

Let me qualify my post by saying I am not of the Jewish faith/community.

My DD told me a few years ago that girls expressed horror at the mere suggestion of getting to know a potential suitor as it would be scandalous and wrong to repeatedly meet up without being married.
DD (very astute for a then 15 year old), asked how on earth one decides one likes/is attracted to/has anything in common with someone you only glimpse once under close scrutiny of both families.

There's also the fear in my community that if you rebel and refuse to get married it will bring shame on your family, your parents won't be able to hold their heads up in the community or places of worship and gathering, and worse younger siblings won't be marriageable (only girls though boys aren't affected).

I am hoping as the next generation grow up there is less concern about what the community thinks and more concern within families for their daughters.

I adore my girls and I cannot imagine, looking at them, even beginning to want to choose who they will go on to marry.

I wish so much for my girls, and a happy loving family of their own when they're older and have established careers and lived life a little more is one of those.

I remarried outside my race (also a big huge no for us).

My mother never got over the fact I divorced the man she chose for me, although he was abusive. She actually said to me she would support me if I returned to that man. Even after seeing me with bruises.
My dad then told me quite seriously he'd disown me if I went back to that marriage. And thank god I had his support as I don't think I would have had the courage to leave without my dads blessings.

EveSacks · 10/03/2021 16:54

[quote Notallowedtogo]@EveSacks Thank you for responding to me. Yes, I agree with you. But I guess my point is that most girls will not be aware that they are being coerced and may even argue that it is their choice.

I wish you luck with all your campaigning and do admire you and think you are very brave to be out there campaigning from within.[/quote]
@Notallowedtogo

Yes - that is correct, at the time many young peole will think its what they want. Many will be happy long term. Some will later find that the match was not a good one - for whatever reason - we wrote a content page for Mumsnet, where we described an iceberg, eg most of forced marriages below surface, as even though there is coercion, at the time the young people are happy to go ahead with it.

EveSacks · 10/03/2021 17:01

@frazzledasarock

Yes - your DD was shocked as she has a more open upbringing and can see that marrying someone she doesn't know is a massive risk, and not one worth taking.

And yes this is an issue in many other faith communities, the reason we were happy to come on Mumsnet when it was suggested was precisely because this is not just a Jewish issue. The things you describe in your post are so familiar, eg parents wanting their daughters to return to abusive men Angry or bringing shame on your family.

ThistleTits · 10/03/2021 20:04

I wish you all the luck you require.

PikesPeaked · 10/03/2021 20:20

My very existence within my community is a protest - I am not threatening to leave, I am threatening to stay.

That is so important.

One of the reasons ultra-orthodox faith groups discourage autonomy is to keep members within the fold. You demonstrate that a person can think for themselves and choose to remain within the fold.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 10/03/2021 20:39

My very existence within my community is a protest - I am not threatening to leave, I am threatening to stay.

That's so powerful and such a demonstration of courage.

MuddlingMackem · 11/03/2021 10:45

@RagzReturnsRebooted

Wow, I feel stupidly naive to have had no idea how widespread arranged marriage is in the UK, or that it was a part of some strict Jewish faiths.

I find arranged marriage appalling and personally believe it should be illegal. Would you consider it a form of slavery? If, as I assume the women are expected to stay at home and produce and raise children with no choice in the matter.

Arranged marriage and forced marriage are not the same thing.

As far as I am aware, an arranged marriage is where both of the participants have made informed consent and are involved participants in the arrangement, and there are people who are happy to have this as an option for them.

Forced marriage is where at least one of the participants is unable to exercise free will regarding the arrangement.

JuliaMumsnet · 11/03/2021 11:18

Hello everyone - Eve and Yehudis have written this resource page on forced marriage for us, please take a look and share widely.

OP posts:
DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 11/03/2021 12:37

You are both amazing women!

The story also highlights the power of Mumsnet - an anonymous, female space to talk. How did you get access in a community which refuses internet access, and how can we ensure others have access too?

minniemoocher · 11/03/2021 12:46

Several students at my DD's 6th form, with help from amazing staff have escaped forced marriage and other family issues, at one point the head of student support had two students living with her awaiting housing from the council, one escaped her family at Heathrow being taken to Pakistan with assistance from border police, the other was gay (male) and family were trying to force him to marry a cousin to rid him of his demons. I was horrified that it's so wide spread. The teacher who was my DD's keyworker said that most years they have 5-6 cases

Councilworker · 12/03/2021 10:47

Thank you for speaking out @YehudisFletcher. Your statement that you are a theat because you are staying in the community is a very powerful one. I know Broughton Park and Prestwich very well and it is such a divided and insular community. I also see in my in laws a real division, my husband married out and while one side of his family don't mind abothe uncle blames us for his daughter also marrying out. Because we made it seem ok.
I found myself nodding at so much of what you have written. It also made me think about a girl I was in Sixth form with who was Muslim and had a boyfriend who was also Muslim but from the wrong community as far as her family were concerned. She just stopped coming to school one day and the last thing that was known about Zheba was that her family had sent her to Pakistan to get married. 24 years later I still wonder what happened to her.

Budsey · 13/03/2021 09:26

wow wow wow I had no idea that this was happening !I have worked in a Jewish community some years ago and never was this discussed on any level ,the people appeared to be more liberal in their views , I was aware of the Orthodox Jews as in how they practised the religion ,and was also aware that many had married outside of their religious constraints ,and I perceived that as quite normal though understood it was frowned on but didn't appear to impact the community that much....soo this has come as a complete surprise ....the secrecy surrounding this is what perpetuates the system?? ,,,,what happens to the people if they refuse? what are the repercussions? ghosh just shows if you don't ask the right questions you can be blissfully unaware !! I am more annoyed that I didn't know !! Thank you for your post very much an eye opener for someone who thinks that they are reasonably worldly wise.. NOT.. as it turns out !! I will now do more reading etc and become more aware
Many thanks and I wish you well in your endeavours it is going to be a long hard road... good luck ....

334bu · 13/03/2021 11:39

Thank you for posting this.

Xenia · 14/03/2021 09:29

It is a really interesting discussion. Thank you. The FLDS group in the USA (and other similar fndamentalist Christian / Mormon groups even those who do not break the law there) try the same - separation from others (as do the Amish and others). The difficult issue is where you draw the line and intervene.

In most countries rightly that is where the law draws the line eg in the UK you can marry at 16 with parental permission so groups who try marriage under the lawful age tend to get in trouble around the world. Where the isolated groups keep to the law that is when it becomes difficult. Do we want to live in a UK where people can be different even if we dislike their views? I think we probably do even if that means some traveller girls tend to marry from their own community and I live in a very hindu (and Jewish) borough and a lot of the hindus have arranged marriages - not forced but arranged. Lots of people stay married. in my son's school in year 1 I (Catholic) was the only divorced parent of the whole two classes - I think we are one of the London boroughs with the highest married rate which brings stability to children but a fair few are brought up fairly isolated and keep to their own communities.

Anyway good debate and as long as we allow parent freedom to bring up their children with their own views but within English law in England then I think that is the right way to go. So if most people in the Uk don't like Jehovah's witnesses not approving of university education or wanting distinct gender roles but that is not unlawful then we let them get on with it. Whereas if a group has forced rather than arranged marriage then we intervene.

What tends to happen when someone marries someone not in their religious is the most religious of the two tend to prevail eg my mother (and her mother and I and my daughter - 4 generations all Catholic all married in the Catholic church but those 4 generations of men from 1930 were all protestants yet all married in the Catholic church as it meant a lot to the wife)

EveSacks · 14/03/2021 11:44

@Xenia

It is a really interesting discussion. Thank you. The FLDS group in the USA (and other similar fndamentalist Christian / Mormon groups even those who do not break the law there) try the same - separation from others (as do the Amish and others). The difficult issue is where you draw the line and intervene.

In most countries rightly that is where the law draws the line eg in the UK you can marry at 16 with parental permission so groups who try marriage under the lawful age tend to get in trouble around the world. Where the isolated groups keep to the law that is when it becomes difficult. Do we want to live in a UK where people can be different even if we dislike their views? I think we probably do even if that means some traveller girls tend to marry from their own community and I live in a very hindu (and Jewish) borough and a lot of the hindus have arranged marriages - not forced but arranged. Lots of people stay married. in my son's school in year 1 I (Catholic) was the only divorced parent of the whole two classes - I think we are one of the London boroughs with the highest married rate which brings stability to children but a fair few are brought up fairly isolated and keep to their own communities.

Anyway good debate and as long as we allow parent freedom to bring up their children with their own views but within English law in England then I think that is the right way to go. So if most people in the Uk don't like Jehovah's witnesses not approving of university education or wanting distinct gender roles but that is not unlawful then we let them get on with it. Whereas if a group has forced rather than arranged marriage then we intervene.

What tends to happen when someone marries someone not in their religious is the most religious of the two tend to prevail eg my mother (and her mother and I and my daughter - 4 generations all Catholic all married in the Catholic church but those 4 generations of men from 1930 were all protestants yet all married in the Catholic church as it meant a lot to the wife)

@Xenia

Our issue is really about girls being socially pressured to marry someone they barely know, and then having a religious obigation to have marital intercourse etc. We are entirely supportive of communities who prefer their children to marry within their own faith. But heteronormative arrnaged marriage isn't suitable for all, so there does have to be a way to say no without social stigma.

Even with the university education, point I am very uncomfortable with a relgious group denying those born into the group the opportunity to study at university / ability to access certain careers.

Regarding the point about "lots of people stay married", again is that s everyone is happy or is it because there is a social stigma about divorce. Lets hypothetically think of the LGBTQ young person who didn't recent any sex education in her religious school, and willingly entered an arranged marriage to a man she barely knew. Now she is married with small kids in a community where there is a stigma around divorce, and where there is a religious obligation to have sex with her husband. Of course this is the minority, but the overall point we are trying to make is that social pressure from infanthood to marry someone you barely know after one meeting is not a good idea.

EveSacks · 14/03/2021 11:48

@Budsey

wow wow wow I had no idea that this was happening !I have worked in a Jewish community some years ago and never was this discussed on any level ,the people appeared to be more liberal in their views , I was aware of the Orthodox Jews as in how they practised the religion ,and was also aware that many had married outside of their religious constraints ,and I perceived that as quite normal though understood it was frowned on but didn't appear to impact the community that much....soo this has come as a complete surprise ....the secrecy surrounding this is what perpetuates the system?? ,,,,what happens to the people if they refuse? what are the repercussions? ghosh just shows if you don't ask the right questions you can be blissfully unaware !! I am more annoyed that I didn't know !! Thank you for your post very much an eye opener for someone who thinks that they are reasonably worldly wise.. NOT.. as it turns out !! I will now do more reading etc and become more aware Many thanks and I wish you well in your endeavours it is going to be a long hard road... good luck ....
@Budsey

Yes this is case in more insular groups and NOT the case across the board. I came acorss it as a teenager as I was brought up in a very small Jewish community - it would not normally be common for someone like myself (eg at a "regular" school) to observe charedi girls in this way. That was why there was no open conversation - their parents all nervous I would say something that would rock their belief system.

re: refusing, it very much depends on the community. In some there really isn't scope for dissent so I am speaking to a couple of young men now who are basically planning to run away Shock not ideally as one of them has a baby and a toddler. In other communities can say no, but there will be another match....

EveSacks · 14/03/2021 11:50

@MuddlingMackem

Yes but thats the difficulty. In a community where no other options are ever presented, what does a "full and free consent" look like?

EveSacks · 14/03/2021 11:52

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

You are both amazing women!

The story also highlights the power of Mumsnet - an anonymous, female space to talk. How did you get access in a community which refuses internet access, and how can we ensure others have access too?

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

Some people do secretly have internet, and some use their neighbours! One of my friends had internet - her DH happy to have it as long as secret from their kid's schools - and her neighbour whose DH not happy to have it used her internet!! The issus is more using mumsnet as a) wouldn't have heard of it and b) would be nervous about being outed.

EveSacks · 14/03/2021 11:54

@minniemoocher

Several students at my DD's 6th form, with help from amazing staff have escaped forced marriage and other family issues, at one point the head of student support had two students living with her awaiting housing from the council, one escaped her family at Heathrow being taken to Pakistan with assistance from border police, the other was gay (male) and family were trying to force him to marry a cousin to rid him of his demons. I was horrified that it's so wide spread. The teacher who was my DD's keyworker said that most years they have 5-6 cases
@minniemoocher

I wanted to pick up on the "famiy trying to force him to marry a cousin to rid him of his demons" - this is a story we have heard before - bascially forced marriage as a form of conversion therapy Shock.

Pleased that the students escaped Smile

Franksalot · 14/03/2021 14:25

I wonder if a Jewish board might be an idea on Mumsnet. It could be a safe space to discuss issues such as circumcision, Jewish schools etc that can on other threads on Mumsnet can become very contentious and taken over.

If more frum women felt that Mumsnet offered them something they can’t get elsewhere, and then used it, they would then be more likely to read other threads and topics in active conversations.

EveSacks · 14/03/2021 17:23

@Franksalot

I wonder if a Jewish board might be an idea on Mumsnet. It could be a safe space to discuss issues such as circumcision, Jewish schools etc that can on other threads on Mumsnet can become very contentious and taken over.

If more frum women felt that Mumsnet offered them something they can’t get elsewhere, and then used it, they would then be more likely to read other threads and topics in active conversations.

@Franksalot

I wondered whether a board for those living in faith communities more generally, on that board could have threads either on specific faith questions eg Jewish schools as you say, or fasting on Ramadam or more general issues affecting all.

PikesPeaked · 14/03/2021 17:41

No forum on a website with open access to all can ever be a 'safe space'. Post on anything even vaguely contentious to do with religion, and the thread gets derailed with claims of flying spaghetti monster/abuse/misogyny.

That said, I would welcome a Faith Communities topic that focused on non-Christian religions. The Religion/Philosophy topic doesn't work because it is very Christianocentric - unsurprisingly, as Christianity is the majority religion and has shaped the cultures of the countries of most MNers. But other perspectives exist and are worth exploring.

Franksalot · 14/03/2021 17:44

@EveSacks yes that could work. There is currently a Philosophy/Religion board, but I don't feel that is the right place for Jewish discussions, which are more likely to be about the way of life rather than religious debates.

A space where Jewish women are able to talk and share anonymously would be a lifeline for some, especially those who are more isolated. For those who are not religious like myself, it would also be a benefit as most Jewish women I know are very active on Facebook etc, but you have to then be more careful what you say.

Socrates11 · 15/03/2021 10:55

Thanks for the reading recommendations. I can't find kindle version of Leah Vincent's 'Cut Me Loose' yet, will be following this up with my local library. (Leah is currently calling themselves Jacob)

I did get the Shulem Deens book, 'All Who Go Do Not Return' (yet to read) and found this article from 2017 about it
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jun/10/shulem-deen-when-i-lost-god-i-lost-my-children-too

I appreciate this answer & it just makes me really sad that some parents think blanket coercion is the answer. As Deens says he was raised to believe questions are dangerous. This is harmful but some people still think it is acceptable in order to maintain tradition.
Freedom of belief, thought and religion is a qualified right, rather than an absolute one. So when someone’s religious actions would be harmful to others, then there is no right to harm others. Thus a denial of education or a forced marriage in the name of religious belief just doesn’t work

I'm now looking for a Sue Lloyd Roberts quote 'War on Women' where she puts a stick of dynamite under the word tradition, I may be some time lol.