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Guest post: "We can't compete with Trump's hate - and we shouldn't"

271 replies

JosephineMumsnet · 09/11/2016 15:27

I'm not sure how many Brexits today is supposed to be worth. I started to lose count at around 3am. Then again, the shock is not quite the same as that of the morning of 24 June. If anything, given 2016's track record, it would have felt odd for the US election to go any other way.

Perhaps I have no right to be upset. After all, I'm not even American and even if I was, every expression of dismay will be that of a member of the smug liberal elite (since that is now what anyone who is not virulently right-wing has become). Even so, the parallels between politics in the UK and US seem to be overwhelming. We are witnessing a thuggish take-over by far-right bullies who pose as anti-establishment heroes, men who pretend to smash up the system while their own dominance remains untouched.

Donald Trump – just like the UK's Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage – is someone whose privilege has exempted him from having to follow the same rules as everyone else. He has been able to pose as a rule-breaker even though the normal rules of engagement never applied to him in the first place. Being a woman meant that Hillary Clinton could never have behaved as Trump did and got away with it. Yet precisely because of this she was dismissed as a member of the elite propping up the establishment. But Donald Trump is the establishment and it is rotten to the core.

George W Bush's victory in 2000 might have been bitterly disappointing – not to mention mired in controversy – but this is a disaster of a different order. Bush may have been racist, misogynist, classist, a warmonger, but he was within the bounds of what one might call a small-d democrat. Trump is not.

The dark turn taken by 2016 politics in both the UK and US has involved a shift to mob rule via the threat of violence. Mainstream UK newspapers call judges enemies of the state; Farage calls for Leave voters to take to the streets to 'get even' with politicians intent on 'watering down' the results of a vague, advisory referendum; a female politician is murdered in broad daylight by a far-right activist; and the man who hinted at the assassination of his female opponent is voted into the White House.

A contract has been broken. The likes of Trump and Farage would suggest that it is a contract that has enabled the elite to exploit the people. They would suggest that doing away with the superficial niceties of political discourse rightfully undermines those who use connections and educational advantage to manipulate others. But dispensing with the niceties means nothing if you replace them with threats and even more lies. It simply leaves us with nowhere to go.

I worry about how the left will respond to this disaster. Following Brexit many of us looked to ourselves, seeking refuge in self-blame. After all, if there's something you could have done, then perhaps you could do it now? But I do not want to see conversations about how Democrats should have listened more to 'the people’s' concerns about immigration and racial diversity. Plenty of those who voted for Trump were not the dispossessed; they were white college-educated men, drunk on years of being told that their dominance was under threat. There is no point in the left attempting to appease people who think this way. You just become a fellow hater, albeit someone whose mediocre, half-hearted hate can never compete with the full-blooded, unbridled hatred of men like Trump.

We need something more solid than that. This morning JK Rowling – whom I'd love as our PM – tweeted this: "We stand together. We stick up for the vulnerable. We challenge bigots. We don't let hate speech become normalised. We hold the line." That is what we must do. That is all that we can do. We know who is put most at risk by Trump's victory. The worst thing we could do is to sell them out on the basis that a politics that represents everyone is just too much to ask.

Rich white men are a minority. They do not have the right to intimidate everyone else into submission. This particular battle may be lost but people with compassion, love and the will to do right are not going anywhere.

OP posts:
StrictlyPan · 11/11/2016 14:15
claig · 11/11/2016 15:45

Trump won Michigan in the end

"Trump flipped 12 counties to win Michigan"

www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/11/09/trump-won-michigan/93551192/

Southallgirl · 11/11/2016 17:05

Thanks for that, Claig. My newspaper from yesterday still has Michigan greyed out. And of course DT took Florida from the Democrats!

Southallgirl · 11/11/2016 17:20

Claig - Predictably DT did not secure Wayne County, MI, probably because of Dearborn, but he got the State anyway.

roseship · 11/11/2016 18:25

Wayne County is mostly Detroit, which is the number one worst shithole in America.

It's run by 'identity' politicians most of whom are literal criminals, but whereas you might assume that the whole area is a dump, the US city system means that there are suburbs of Detroit which are legally/politically different cities that are thriving and growing.

There were 1.5 million white people in Detroit in 1950, today there are only around 50,000.

mimishimmi · 11/11/2016 22:13

Reapwhatyousow My husband is from a minority group that is often mistaken for another very unpopular one and he thinks it would be a great time for us to go back to America (we lived there for 6 years). He thinks Trump will be great. I am not so sure...but I don't think he's a warmonger, he's a dealmaker.

winterisnigh · 11/11/2016 22:21

Just spent a happy hour reading this most illuminating thread. Some great posts, fabulous posts. Probably not what the guest poster envisaged.

A quiet little corner of reason. Smile

Shocked by the KKK link to HC though.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 10:01

winterisnigh Hopefully we have another Age of Reason coming soon ........

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 10:04

I don't think he's a warmonger, he's a dealmaker.

I agree. In every war a great deal of money is made by the armaments manufacturers and their shareholders. I would love to take a look at that list of shareholders, because I always stick with what an FBI guy said a long time ago, which is "always follow the money".

ItsJustaUsername · 12/11/2016 13:46

The insistence on polarisation that you represent is tearing western nations apart and further radicalising both sides. You are no better than the alt-right you so despise and are precisely mirroring the anti-liberal discourse that they engaged in when your perspective was ascendant and theirs dissident.

Beautifully put. The very fact that the guest poster came on, stated her opinion as fact and didn't bother coming back to engage in a discussion on a chat site echos what many posters have been saying about the liberals and their point blank refusal to consider the opinions of others. As long as this continues so will the popularity of right wing politics.

GinAndTunic · 12/11/2016 14:03

"Without Immigrants Trump would have had no Wives. "

It is always amusing when someone publicly parades their ignorance: Trump's second wife was Marla Maples, who was born in the US.

GinAndTunic · 12/11/2016 14:10

Claig, I just wanted to compliment you on your thought-provoking posts.

And I would also like to thank the poster who pointed out Clinton's link to the KKK.

And just to add another layer to the conversation: Trump was a Democrat before he re-invented himself as a Republican.

FameNameGameLame · 12/11/2016 14:26

I'm really enjoying this thread - it's a little sane corner in a world of spat dummy's and toys thrown from prams.

Especially the idea that he actively trolled to drum up attention and ultimately win. How he dumbed him self down for the campaign...

The earlier footage of him discussing political ideas. The fact he repeatedly said he didn't want to run. The first steps he has taken into his role.

I was never scared, but I'm actively interested to see what happens - it might be surprisingly positive.

I also feel like I have learnt something very solid about the BBC bias. Until this point I did feel that it was maybe a little bit exaggerated, but on this campaign it has been disturbingly one-sided.

I find it fascinating. It will be so interesting to say how history progresses.

noblegiraffe · 12/11/2016 14:31

God are people really so utterly stupid to keep repeating "Clinton's link to the KKK" like that phrase has any meaning, while the KKK are organising victory parties celebrating Trump's selection.

Clinton's KKK link is that she praised someone as a friend and mentor the longest serving Senator (over 50 years), who apparently had an encyclopaedic knowledge of the workings of Senate, who said "Barack Obama is a noble-hearted patriot and humble Christian, and he has my full faith and support." who was in the KKK around the time of World War 2, and has described it as the biggest mistake of his life.

It's clear which candidate got the racist vote, and it wasn't Clinton.

originalmavis · 12/11/2016 14:44

I am watching with interest his back pedalling on his election promises - as is common enough I suppose.

I wonder how those who voted for him because of their anger and disappointment will react to his changing his song.

FameNameGameLame · 12/11/2016 14:50

I guess most rational people will wait and see if he can generate results and change.

"God are people really so utterly stupid"

⬆️ This attitude right here was when started to feel a bit uncomfortable wearing the label 'liberal'.

noblegiraffe · 12/11/2016 14:56

I feel totally comfortable questioning people's intelligence when they spout shit like 'Hillary's link to the KKK'. That's nothing to do with being liberal, but rational.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 14:58

I love this bit from the Pie vid.

".... that banning a gymnast from doing what he's good at because he insulted someone's religion somehow achieves something. When did the gymnast association start thinking it was appropriate to enforce blasphemy laws?!" Fab.

FameNameGameLame · 12/11/2016 15:08

I feel totally comfortable questioning people's intelligence

And that's the reason why people have become disenfranchised. You feel more comfortable questioning intelligence than demonstrating active listening, consideration and compassionate response.

And you have become so brainwashed to believe that "them'uns are just stupid", that you feel totally comfortable questioning people's intelligence.

I hate to do it, it's cringe I know, but remember when you point your finger - your other three are pointing back at you.

Guest post: "We can't compete with Trump's hate - and we shouldn't"
noblegiraffe · 12/11/2016 15:17

Fame I get this current self-flagellating by the left, I really do. People with different experiences and opinions should be listened to in an attempt to understand their viewpoint.

But that doesn't mean that people spreading any old shit around on the internet shouldn't be challenged. Nor should posters who appear to do this with an agenda be respected. Nor should opinion trump (haha) fact.

GinAndTunic · 12/11/2016 15:19

Fame, that is a great graphic. Thank you.

FameNameGameLame · 12/11/2016 15:20

You do not have to respect someone to behave in a respectable manner. Labelling people as stupid and questioning their intelligence is not respectable behaviour.

GinAndTunic · 12/11/2016 15:21

as is common enough I suppose

Of course it is and there's no point singling out Trump for doing what every political candidate does: makes promises that they have no intention or ability of honouring. You would be criticising him for following through with the nonsense he spouted during his campaign.

noblegiraffe · 12/11/2016 15:35

Labelling people as stupid and questioning their intelligence is not respectable behaviour.

I thought it was pretty restrained, in the circumstances, which are, let's remind ourselves, trying to, via a cheap slogan, smear Hillary Clinton and suggest that she actively associates with white supremacists with exceptionally weak evidence.

There has been lots of talk about the left living in echo chambers and being surrounded with people who agree with you unchallenged. Why should that not apply to the right too? Stupid statements and actions if only challenged in the gentlest terms will proliferate (I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Hillary has links to the KKK but I understand your willingness to believe that).

FameNameGameLame · 12/11/2016 15:45

No I interpret it very differently. You are so jumped up on the unquestionable notion that you are on the 'right' side of history that you show total disregard for anyone else's opinion. That is not respectable or progressive, however you wish to dress it up to make yourself feel righteous in your behaviour.

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