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Guest post: "As sex workers, our lives depend on decriminalisation"

390 replies

JosephineMumsnet · 07/07/2016 12:19

I was 19 years old when I made the decision to sell sex. An unorthodox choice, certainly, but one which helped me get through university without crippling debt, and later, a choice which would allow me to return to university as a single parent and complete my second degree. Please don't fall into the trap of assuming that because I'm a white, middle-class, educated woman I can't possibly understand the abject misery that is sometimes seen in our industry. I stood on Burlington Road in Dublin in the dead of winter, often drunk or out of my head on cocaine, or both, selling sex at £30 a time. That's not privileged. Now, with over 20 years behind me, I can finally put that experience to use, and educate people about the realities of our industry, and what would make us safer.

As the debate around the sex industry gathers steam, there are two schools of thought. Punish the punters by making it illegal to purchase sex, or decriminalise the laws around sex work. Let's look at both.

The law that criminalises the punter was introduced in Sweden in 1999 and has been an abject failure. Its aim was to reduce prostitution by reducing 'demand', but the Swedish government admits there has been no change to the number of buyers, or sellers. So what has changed? Violence against sex workers has increased sharply, with police targeting their homes to arrest buyers, often resulting in their being made homeless. The most vulnerable sex workers on the streets cannot be reached by outreach services, to facilitate condom distribution or needle exchange, as they need to work away from police detection. Sex workers are refusing to report violence to police, as they know they place themselves at risk from the very people supposed to protect them. Stigma has increased, with sex workers in both Sweden and Norway reporting having their children removed, and deportation of migrant sex workers is rife.

One of the most infuriating strands to the current feminist discourse around sex work is the assertion that we are abused, or even raped, every time we sell sex. That statement is injurious and grossly insulting to those who have survived abuse and rape, and it also strips sex workers of our agency. As much as we campaign for the right to say 'yes', we absolutely reserve the right to say 'no'. I detest the use of the word 'empowerment' in any debate on sex work. My job is no more empowering than anyone else's; it allows me to support my family and pay my bills. But as a community, there is no doubt that we are more empowered to say 'no' when we are permitted to work together for safety.

Under current legislation, and even more so under the Swedish model, sex workers are not permitted to work more than one to a premises. If I ask a friend to share an apartment with me so I feel safer in accepting visiting clients, we can be arrested and charged with 'pimping' from each other. That practice is commonplace. As cash, mobile phones and laptops are often removed as 'evidence', the women concerned are left with nothing but a criminal record, simply for wishing to stay safe.

So what is decriminalisation? Not to be confused with legalisation, it refers to the removal of all criminal prohibitions and penalties on sex work. In doing so, it protects the human rights of sex workers, as acknowledged by WHO, UNAIDS, The Lancet and more recently, Amnesty International.

Decriminalisation allows us to work together for safety, which is crucial. Decriminalisation also makes it easier to access justice and support services, and facilitates a better response to true exploitation in the industry. When the police work with us, not against us, we are best placed to identify and report others in danger.

On June 1 2015, the Northern Irish Assembly made it illegal to purchase sex. I have launched a High Court challenge to that law and will take it to the European Court of Human Rights if necessary. You may not like or be comfortable with the exchange of sex for money and that's fine - that's not what this debate is about. It's about our right to safety in the workplace. 154 sex workers have been murdered since 1990. We ask for your support for decriminalisation. Our lives depend on it.

Read Kat Banyard's post here.

OP posts:
GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 11:13

PlentyOfPubeGardens

At some point during the 3 years they tend to get jobs, Gaye - actual jobs, not sex 'work'.

HOW do they get these jobs exactly? Starving, homeless, with no washing facilities and no money for transport?

Or they successfully appeal the sanction

What do they eat, where do they live in the, what is it, 6 to 12 weeks to get an appeal through? Then how do they recover all they have lost on basic JSA?

/ get moved onto ESA if appropriate.

Very rare, however appropriate, particularly under sanction, it is more usual for people to be moved from ESA to JSA THEN sanctioned.

...bearing in mind that basic rates of JSA were below subsistence in many categories even before Tory austerity

How do you think dads survive with 3 year benefit sanctions? Why aren't they all out selling sex?

It's harder for a man, he usually isn't lucky enough to have hetrosexual sex work as a last honest resort, so it's either hard crime or...the distinct corelation between male suicide statistic and the numbers of women selling sex in the same age groups.

You aren't giving me reality or reasons here, just totally invalid excuses for legislation you know perfectly well will only make lives that are already desperate impossible.

There is no reason on earth to criminalise the sale or purchase of sex under any circumstances.

There is no excuse for criminalising the purchase of sex where it will impact on survival sex workers.

That is all very simple, and obvious, and whatever excuse you come out with it comes back to the same thing. Your immature self indulgence is demanding a nightmare be imposed on vulnerable people.

...and I think at heart, you know that as well as I do.

DoinItFine · 09/07/2016 11:19

he usually isn't lucky enough to have hetrosexual sex work as a last honest resort

Yeah.

Women are so lucky that men can pay to get ariund the whole consent issue.

Lucky, lucky them.

Why couldn't these poor men do gay prostitution?

That's just "honest" sex work too, right?

I mean, if someone is paying to have sex with you that you don't wantvand won't enjoy, why does it matter if it's a man or a woman?

weeonion · 09/07/2016 11:22

Lauralee - your gofundme page was in existence for a long time before you needed money for your high court action - you originally wanted money for your own living expenses. Also - could you confirm if one of your previous press agents was max Clifford??

I ask this as I have yet to meet or hear from another woman in prostitution in Scotland who has a press agent. I recently spoke with a group of them and when I asked them who represented them and their needs - they didn't talk about any individuals, lobbying groups or campaigns. They had never met with nor even heard of groups such as IUSW, SWOU, national uglymugs or scotpep so how are their views being considered by yourself or these groups?

Also - are you able to give numbers or links to evidence about the number of women whose children are being removed just because of her involvement in prostitution?

IPityThePontipines · 09/07/2016 11:26

It's harder for a man, he usually isn't lucky enough to have hetrosexual sex work as a last honest resort, so it's either hard crime or...the distinct corelation between male suicide statistic and the numbers of women selling sex in the same age groups.

This is just getting nonsensical now. First we have not doing sex work being linked to child suicide and now we are being told that men would be less likely to kill themselves if they were able to have sex with strangers for money.

You are also not going to get anywhere by consistently sneering at us for apparently being removed from "reality".

This is because:

  1. You don't know any if us well enough to make that assumption.
  2. The normalisation of the sex industry affects all women as a class, not just those who work within in it, so we all get to have a say.
  3. If sex work is normal work, as you claim it to be, then it should be able to be openly discussed, just like any other job is.
GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 11:32

Why couldn't these poor men do gay prostitution? That's just "honest" sex work too, right? I mean, if someone is paying to have sex with you that you don't wantvand won't enjoy, why does it matter if it's a man or a woman?

It does matter I can assure you, though, like so many things it varies how much from person to person. Sexual orientation is a spectrum after all. Some sex workers regularly do bisexual shows. I couldn't have sex with a woman at gunpoint.

I don't think you have a clue what sex work is really like. There are one hell of a lot of shades of grey, and every other colour of the rainbow, between desire and aversion. Best demonstrated in the negative. It did not bother me in the slightest to have sex with my clients, but it did not arouse me either and I would have hated it if it had.

BUT...there were a few men that repelled me, not because they were nasty people, or rude, or troublesome, just my reaction. I never did business with them.

You have to actually sell sex to know what it is really like, unless you have you are bound to get it wrong.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 09/07/2016 11:34

If you are homeless and have children the council have a duty to house you. You will still be entitled to HB while your JSA is sanctioned, along with CTC and CB. You will also be eligible for hardship payments which are 60% of JSA (you will have to pay this back when the sanction ends).

I am no fan of the punitive benefits and sanctions system. It causes a lot of hardship and is frequently grossly unfair but 'Starving, homeless, with no washing facilities and no money for transport? is not the reality. Every month, tens of thousands of people apply for a hardship payment and the vast majority get one. Maybe you're onto something though, the govt. could save £££ if they all went out and sold sex instead.

If selling sex is just a job and nothing to do with really loving sex, as we are often told, why don't men go out and sell gay sex? It's just a service isn't it?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/07/2016 11:42

It does matter I can assure you, though, like so many things it varies how much from person to person. Sexual orientation is a spectrum after all. Some sex workers regularly do bisexual shows. I couldn't have sex with a woman at gunpoint

But I thought it was just a job? Not really about sex so what difference does the orientation make? Huge contradictions there.

GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 11:43

This is just getting nonsensical now. First we have not doing sex work being linked to child suicide and now we are being told that men would be less likely to kill themselves if they were able to have sex with strangers for money.

Don't enjoy the truth about how desperate life can really be? Understandable, but hardly likely to generate useful comment on survival sex work.

*You are also not going to get anywhere by consistently sneering at us for apparently being removed from "reality". This is because:

  1. You don't know any if us well enough to make that assumption.*

I don't need to, I only need to see the huge absence of perception of reality reality in the things you are posting to know that - unless I conclude you are lying for kicks there is no other possible explanation.

The normalisation of the sex industry affects all women as a class, not just those who work within in it, so we all get to have a say.

Apart from the fact that women are a gender, not a class, unless you are all totally precious little flowers with no sense of self that statement is utter rubbish. The majority of women, living, working and raising kids in the real world never think about sex work for a moment, and if they do are inclined to believe most of it is a made up story to fill tabloids.

If sex work is normal work, as you claim it to be, then it should be able to be openly discussed, just like any other job is.

It is, what I have a problem with is people who have no idea about sex work making a life's work out of campaigning (using every trick in the book and little or no fact) to make it harder and more dangerous just to reinforce their own invalid sense of superiority.

GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 11:53

If you are homeless and have children the council have a duty to house you.

Doesn't mean they have anywhere fit for habitation to put you, and your kids. Most times they don't.

You will still be entitled to HB while your JSA is sanctioned, along with CTC and CB. You will also be eligible for hardship payments which are 60% of JSA (you will have to pay this back when the sanction ends).

Shows how much you know, your entitlement to HB ends with a sanction (or the end of any other entitlement). Hardship payments are something very few people know about and a minefield of expensive phone calls to claim.

Just how does 60% of below subsistence keep children in everything they need?

How do you pay that back out of 100% of below subsistence?

If selling sex is just a job and nothing to do with really loving sex, as we are often told, why don't men go out and sell gay sex? It's just a service isn't it?

LassWiTheDelicateAir
But I thought it was just a job? Not really about sex so what difference does the orientation make? Huge contradictions there.

Have either of you ever sold ANY kind of service...doesn't matter what...gardening...computer repairs...

Some people just repel you, and you can't bear being near them.

You do realise that sex with a man and sex with a woman are totally different?

Thomasisintraining · 09/07/2016 11:54

You don't do argument for the sake of argument Gaye don't make me laugh. This thread is full of mainly just you trying to defend the indefensible.

PaulDacresMicroPenis · 09/07/2016 12:00

Ok Gaye since you wish to discuss this at a purely emotive level I'll ask this question in seriousness this time. If you think sex work is just another job would you'd let your children do it at the weekend to earn a bit of extra cash?

DoinItFine · 09/07/2016 12:08

I've worked as a freelancer selling a service.

Makes no odds to me if the person paying is male or female, beautiful or repulsive.

Their money is all the same.

Also,, it is illegal to refuse to seill somebody a good or service basef on their gender. Or sexual orientation.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 09/07/2016 12:09

Shows how much you know, your entitlement to HB ends with a sanction (or the end of any other entitlement).

This is incorrect. To be eligible for HB you need to:

  1. be paying rent
  2. be on a low income (whether working or not working)
  3. have savings of less than £16,000

Full rules here. It is of course important to tell HB of any change of circumstances to ensure your claim is not stopped.

GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 12:21

Thomasisintraining
You don't do argument for the sake of argument Gaye don't make me laugh. This thread is full of mainly just you trying to defend the indefensible.

Don't be so melodramatic - there is nothing "indefensible" about someone buying a service that is offered to them by someone with a right to sell it. I am here defending the desperate from your callous arrogance.

DoinItFine
I've worked as a freelancer selling a service. Makes no odds to me if the person paying is male or female, beautiful or repulsive.

Another point I have tried to introduce is that we are all different, with different reactions - did you have to being in the same room with people while you were performing the service?

Would you perform the service, for example, against your conscience?

PlentyOfPubeGardens

It stops, then you can make a fresh claim, which can take weeks...what kind of dire circumstances to you actually think it is ok to raise children in??

GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 12:27

PaulDacresMicroPenis

Ok Gaye since you wish to discuss this at a purely emotive level I'll ask this question in seriousness this time. If you think sex work is just another job would you'd let your children do it at the weekend to earn a bit of extra cash?

I do not think elective sex work is appropriate for children. In fact, my personal belief (NOT a legislative suggestion) is that you usually need to be at least 25 to cope mentally and emotionally.

By the time my children were 18 it would not be my business to interfere in the work choices they made. Though I would express exactly what I have said above.

Just because I would not sell sex unless I had no other option doesn't mean they have to feel the same way.

TheRealPosieParker · 09/07/2016 12:38

Selling sex, giving permission for someone to insert their penis into you in whichever orifice is not the same as "selling a service". Let's not pretend it is. If my daughter pretends to be a shopkeeper, a doctor, a lawyer it's no big deal.... if she pretended to be a prostitute? Ahhhh very different story. In fact I can't think of any other "job" that would make me uncomfortable.

It is different, it does leave may people with PTSD. We cannot with good conscience try and make this "normal".

As a freelance worker myself I turn down work that goes against firmly held beliefs.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 09/07/2016 12:42

HB shouldn't stop. Most councils have an online form for reporting a change of circs and then payments are adjusted, not stopped. You shouldn't have to make a new claim.

Shelter have useful guidance:

Report changes in circumstances right away

Report changes as soon as possible. Normally your housing benefit will be adjusted from the Monday after the change in your circumstances occurred.

If you take more than one month to report a change, you may miss out on extra housing benefit money you are entitled to. The council only increases your housing benefit from the Monday after the change is reported.

Don't delay reporting a change that results in a reduction of your housing benefit. You will usually have to pay back overpaid housing benefit.

How long before a change takes effect

The time it takes to process change of circumstances information varies from council to council. It can sometimes take two weeks or more.

When your information has been processed, the housing benefit department writes to you about any changes to the amount of your housing benefit.

You can complain to the council if a delay causes you hardship.

I see you're no longer claiming that a JSA sanction ends entitlement to HB.

GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 12:52

Selling sex, giving permission for someone to insert their penis into you in whichever orifice is not the same as "selling a service".

I have done it, I say it does, you haven't and you say it doesn't...wonder which of use knows what she is talking about?

Let's not pretend it is. If my daughter pretends to be a shopkeeper, a doctor, a lawyer it's no big deal.... if she pretended to be a prostitute? Ahhhh very different story. In fact I can't think of any other "job" that would make me uncomfortable.

You might want to add "Surgeon", "Endocrinologist" and "Mortician" to that list.

It is different, it does leave may people with PTSD. We cannot with good conscience try and make this "normal".

I have never met anyone who got PTSD from sex work, but I have met a whole lot of women who got PTSD from the circumstances that drove them to it. Things that would give anyone PTSD.

What you seem desperate to deny is that survival sex workers come from circumstances that are much worse than sex work, by any standards, during which they have been failed repeatedly by the system itself, and that they also feel having their heads and lives fecked with by dysfunctional radfem fad thinking would also be worse than sex work.

But what if they are right? Particularly as it is about their lives, not yours.

As a freelance worker myself I turn down work that goes against firmly held beliefs.

Then good for you, plenty of people couldn't care less...and it demonstrates that we all have our personal limits in what we can work with.

GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 13:01

PlentyOfPubeGardens

I see you're no longer claiming that a JSA sanction ends entitlement to HB.

I am because it usually does and has to be reclaimed. I am saying these things from memory of real things as they have really happened to a very "clued in" friend in UK not google. If she didn't have a supportive extended family she would have been finished long ago, and no other way round it.

It is easy for you to sit in your comfortable life googling this stuff at leisure. It's a bit different for a Mum who has already been living below subsistence for years, has no money in her purse or the bank to feed her kids (because hand to mouth is all JSA will stretch to)...

...and having to go through the same nightmare over and over again...

Not that that would give anyone PTSD or anything...

Only reason I cannot watch homeless ads to this day without shaking and being freezing cold must be the cr*p camerawork.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/07/2016 13:18

LassWiTheDelicateAir
But I thought it was just a job? Not really about sex so what difference does the orientation make? Huge contradictions there

Have either of you ever sold ANY kind of service...doesn't matter what...gardening...computer repairs...

Some people just repel you, and you can't bear being near them

You do realise that sex with a man and sex with a woman are totally different?

Oh my. Yes I have sold services. My entire professional career has been spent selling services. I am permitted to decide not to act for a client. I'm not permitted to refuse a client solely because they are a man or a woman.

As for sex with a woman being "totally different" really is it? Imagine that. I didn't know , how fortunate I am to have you to enlighten me.

Still not addressing the point of why , if it's just like any job, it's perfectly understandable for heterosexual but desperate men not to turn to gay prostitution; or , if you were faced with a female customer, you should turn her down.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 09/07/2016 13:47

It is easy for you to sit in your comfortable life googling this stuff at leisure.

You know nothing about me, Gaye.

The one thing I agree with you on is that the benefit system is crap. I know this both first hand and professionally. I also know that if you have children the options are never just starve or turn to prostitution. Benefit cock-ups are very common. Amazingly, very few claimants turn to prostitution to survive. Maybe all those who don't take this route could offer advice to those few who feel this is their only option?

Here's a suggestion - how about, instead of putting all this energy into defending the rights of men to wank into the bodies of desperate women, you direct your efforts towards campaigning to reform the system? That way all the women who are too old or ugly to get clients would also benefit, and disabled women, and the under 25's (who you've said are too young to cope with the 'job'), and all those poor suicidal but tragically straight men ...

GayeDalton · 09/07/2016 13:54

LassWiTheDelicateAir

Still not addressing the point of why , if it's just like any job, it's perfectly understandable for heterosexual but desperate men not to turn to gay prostitution; or , if you were faced with a female customer, you should turn her down.

I didn't say I should I said I would!

Also I do not think I have EVER said sex work was "just like any job" and I don't see why it should need to be.

I have said:

  1. Sex work is definitely work
  2. I always regarded sex work as only work and not sex at all
  3. I regard sex work as special category work that some people could never do, like high rise window cleaning, mortuary work, abattoir work and even underground coal mining.

Of course what you are REALLY trying to do is trip me into saying that male demand causes survival sex work, but the truth is it is only half the cause, the other half is female desperation for money and neither could possibly cause sex work without the other.

However, neither would stop existing without the other.

Women would still be utterly desperate for money without male demand for sex, and men would still have a totally different biological sex drive.

Equally, the fact that very few women have a sex drive that can derive satisfaction from casual sex with a stranger does not stop men being desperate for money to survive, so men turn to hard crime or suicide...

...which is what you are trying to force on desperate women too.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/07/2016 13:56

always regarded sex work as only work and not sex at all

Then why would (sorry I meant to say "would") you turn down a female client?

HelenaDove · 09/07/2016 13:57

Gaye is absolutely right. HB stops automatically and has to be reclaimed.

Also where the fuck have some of you been living. People have been sanctioned for attending family funerals or ending up in hospital.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/07/2016 14:00

I regard sex work as special category work that some people could never do, like high rise window cleaning, mortuary work, abattoir work and even underground coal mining

Blimey , not only is "just a job" it's now been elevated to the category of difficult and/or dangerous and/or unpleasant but nevertheless jobs that need to be done category.

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