Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Guest debate: The imposition of the new junior doctor contract

324 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 18/02/2016 16:15

Last Thursday, I cried for our NHS.

I was listening to Jeremy Hunt explain why he had to impose a hugely unpopular contract on doctors. Just 24 hours earlier I had been buoyed by public support on the picket lines, and now here I was, left frustrated and incredulous at the government's action. Despite the Royal Colleges disagreeing with imposition, despite multiple demonstrations and overwhelming polls demonstrating public support against an unsafe contract, the government decided to unilaterally impose a contract that would supposedly allow them to fulfil their party manifesto. Even the Patients Association, usually staunch adversaries of doctors, spoke out against the government's imposition, calling it 'unacceptable'.

We keep hearing the Conservative Party pledge to deliver a 'truly seven day NHS'. This sounds like a lovely idea, which in theory every doctor would support (and, of course, we do already provide a seven day service, routinely working nights and weekends). However, without the necessary extra funding and resources it is frankly dangerous. The government has failed to fully examine the effect this contract will have on patient safety or staffing levels, focusing instead solely on how they can stretch a service without spending more money.

This was never about politics for the doctors. We are driven by concerns for the safety of our patients and the NHS workforce; we want to preserve the NHS for future generations. It is becoming increasingly laughable to hear the Conservative Party call themselves the party of the NHS. Our own Health Secretary refuses to engage and debate with junior doctors. Our Prime Minister has stayed eerily silent throughout this whole dispute, despite presiding over the first doctors' strike in four decades.

Our rotas are already under-filled. Many specialities face retention problems as more doctors leave to work overseas having struggled to maintain a safe work/life balance in the NHS. This contract will see many more doctors resign in despair, leaving a thin workforce spread ever thinner across seven days. We are being asked to do more for less and this is breaking a generation of doctors who are already on their knees with the continued underfunding of the NHS. Currently, one in two junior doctors chooses not to continue with their speciality training. The rate of mental health problems in doctors is worryingly high; it is only likely to get worse. All of this coupled with less robust safeguards on working hours will inevitably result in patient safety being compromised.

I never thought that I would have to strike as a doctor, but I know that any short-term disruption to my patients will be outweighed by the damage this contract will have on patients in the long term.

The government is set on changing the meaning of a weekend for all NHS workers, starting with us, the junior doctors. I have been a junior doctor for five years and have a little boy who is 20 months old. Under this contract, I could be forced to work every other weekend and more nights, spending more time away from my son. My husband is also a medic – many people marry within the profession – and we're already worried about juggling childcare under the new contract. If we end up working alternate weekends, we won't have any weekends together, but if we're in sync we'll have to find someone to look after our son during that time. We already struggle to arrange childcare to cover our night shifts, and the proposed weekend hours will only put a further strain on our finances, and our relationship.

The NHS is not perfect, but it is there for us in our time of need. Speak to any doctor and they will name you 101 things which need improving in the service before embarking on the alleged 'truly seven day NHS'. Our accident and emergency departments are crumbling under the weight of admissions; our mental health services are letting down the most vulnerable people in our society. Our GPs account for 90% of all NHS patient contacts and yet receive only 9% of the funding; our hospitals are filled with patients who we cannot discharge safely because funding to community services has again been slashed.

The government has used its nuclear option and we have been left reeling. We will slowly discover what the fallout will be for you - our patients - and for us - your doctors. Stand with us: your junior doctors need you more than ever.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
LineyReborn · 21/02/2016 12:22

It's a very important point MrsC that 'junior doctors' have a 'lifespan' that is 10-15 years post-qualifying, and reach the position of senior registrar.

How can a senior be a junior? Only in the world of spin.

I'm not a medical doctor by the way. I was the first poster on this thread and made it clear I was a MNer who was writing my post as a patient. I recognise plenty of familiar MN names on here, supporting the medical doctors.

Lanchester · 21/02/2016 12:23

LineyReborn Sun 21-Feb-16 12:02:17

"It only joined MN to post its rhetoric on doctor threads (plus a couple of recent anti-abortion, anti women's bodily autonomy gems). Go figure."

There is something unattractive and censorious
about you adding that text to your recent posting at all.

Plus the fact that it is not true as stated.
Maybe YOU should be REPORTED for that ?

WhoAteAllTheDinosaurs · 21/02/2016 12:31

Many posters have responded to your points, Lanchester, you are the one who isn't listening.

Lanchester · 21/02/2016 12:50

WhoAteAllTheDinosaurs Sun 21-Feb-16 12:31:28
"Many posters have responded to your points, Lanchester, you are the one who isn't listening."

So have you or any one else answered the following point I posted at 12:15:04 ??? I don't think anyone has answered it.

".....When a powerful group in society say that they cannot work 7 days because there are not enough doctors, whilst at the same time say that they already work 7 days and that they are happy to continue to do so as long as they get overtime rates, and at the same time say that working 7 days is dangerous for them and for Patients who are their "prime concern"

....then there is obvious dishonesty and inconsistency in the position of the the Medical Profession. ...."

Carrie370 · 21/02/2016 13:19

Lanchester, you demonstrate a fundamental lack of knowledge of the new contract proposals. The juniors already cover, between them, a rota 24/7/365 for their specialty. This is for emergencies. If they are required to do more weekend work for elective care, this will take them away from the routine weekday care. They will not get the same level of pay for working the extra weekends the Government wants them to work. The existing workforce can't be stretched safely across 7 days. Either they take a pay cut (by working the same hours as before, but losing the premium for some of the antisocial component) or they will have to work longer hours to cover everything (which isn't safe for them or their patients).

They are happy to work the weekends they currently do, but not extra for less pay for a fairytale weekend service that hasn't even been defined, costed or staffed.

Hope this helps ;-)

Nosleepginger · 21/02/2016 13:29

Because at the moment on Monday to Friday elective(routine) care is provided alongside emergency care. At the weekends only emergency care is provided.

A ' truly 7 day NHS ' would mean routine care also at weekends. No other country in the world provides this. This would require 4000 more doctors to cover along with other support staff.

But the government wants to provide this with no more funding and a cost neutral pay packet. Therefore to cover the extra work at weekends doctors will either be required to work longer hours OR less doctors will be available during the week. Already there are rota gaps so this will get worse. Hence why patient safety will be compromised.

GColdtimer · 21/02/2016 13:39

Because there is 7 day care for emergencies. Not elective and routine work. There is not enough doctors to offer this, and what's more the infrastructure and staffing across the rest of the NHS isn't in place to provide support to the doctors for routine work.

The only way to achieve what Hunt wants is to have more doctors to fill all the necessary hours and shifts. Rotas are unfilled at the moment and thus will get worse which will effect patient safety every day of the week.

All that will happen is that there will be less doctors on duty in the week as they are stretched to cover 7 days with routine care as well as emergency.

I saw your response to how you think a fully functional 7 day NHS can be achieved without more doctors and I have to say I didn't understand your arguments at all.

GColdtimer · 21/02/2016 13:44

By the way. I am not a doctor, and do not know any doctors personally.

I broke my leg on Boxing Day a few years ago. I was seen and sorted quickly. I needed that care on Boxing Day as it was an emergency. I wouldn't have needed a clinic appointment on Boxing Day so staffing at the same level as every other day would be pointless.

theredjellybean · 21/02/2016 13:49

lanchester ..i can see that ill informed public might see it as you put it, that doctors already work 7 days a week, there already is that service, and so why are they complaining ...oh yes it is becuase the govt want to pay them less for the weekend work, but honestly its not as simple as that.

what the govt want is routine elective care 7 days a week accross all specialities including primary care.

this needs more doctors , at the moment we do not have, for instance a dematology junior or consultant 'on' in the hospital, this is because there are very few dermatology emergencies at the weekend and we do not provide routine non urgent dermatology at weekends. So dermatology has 2 juniors ( doc in training) at my hospital and 3 consultants which adequately covers the weekday work and someone is on-call at weekends. With 7 day a week services we will need , i am guessing at least double this amount, as the juniors already have fulltime hours mond-friday. so if they have to provide this at weekends too, they are either going to have work 7 days a week ....and why should they ? do you Lanchester ? do MPs ? dustmen ? shop assistants ? teachers ?...or they will need days off in the week to compensate , thus who is doing the job then ?

the issue is the govt are confusing the public by implying that this contract will solve the 7 day a week issue. It wont.....

this contract is about the govt wanting to not pay doctors for working what the majority of people would call unsocial hours.
It about the govt wanting to make it easier for trusts to make doctors work unreasonable rotas .
its about the govt wanting something ( 7 days a week services ) for nothing ....

Lanchester · 21/02/2016 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MrsConsultant · 21/02/2016 13:56

I am sure lots of people have said this already, but the obvious flaw with Jeremy's plan is that he refuses to address the fact that if you want to offer routine care at weekends you need to employ ALL the support staff that are employed during the week, not just doctors:
Receptionists, nurses, physios, scanners, radiographers, secretaries, HCAs, medical records clerks, telephonists, porters, theatre staff, IT support, not to even mention all the extra ward space and beds. Then there is the extra heating and lighting to consider.

Having said that, there are some excellent outpatient services already provided at weekends. We are extremely lucky to have these services available. As a patient I was surprised and pleased to be able to have an important scan done early on a Saturday morning. There was just one radiographer and a receptionist there, but they had a full day of appointments booked.

As I pointed out earlier, consultants do work nights and weekends. DH worked 1:4 weekends from Friday through till Monday without any days off in the week before or after. This is normal. So there would have to be more consultants employed too.

Lab services have all been outsourced now so transporting samples would have to be organised. I wonder if the transport would cost more at weekends?

Only someone absolutely clueless about how hospitals are run would think this would be possible without a massive increase in funding.

GColdtimer · 21/02/2016 15:24

Lanchester several people have replied to your question about the "7 day NHS" - did that help clarify things for you?

LineyReborn · 21/02/2016 15:53

Please don't engage. Let MNHQ do their thing.

Lynnm63 · 21/02/2016 17:21

I've reported Lanchester, that last post was completely out of order. It's the first time I've ever reported a post.

funnyperson · 21/02/2016 17:22

I think the doctors get a very good deal compared to when I was a junior but I dont want to see them going back to those days so I support the action

I would like there to be enough money for the NHS so that our outpatient clinic temperatures are above 10 degree centigrade in this weather and the children I see aren't cold.

I would like there to be enough money so that there are enough secretarial staff so that the letters I write on behalf of those children, making special needs support recommendations, or referrals to specialists, or confirming a diagnosis, dont take over 3 months to get sent out even though they are done and typed electronically on the day of clinic.

Personally I think a lot of professions work long hours and doctors should in no way feel entitled to lots of money. An adequate salary , yes but what about teachers, firemen, policemen etc What about nurses married to nurses who work opposite shifts? Sorry OP but many (too many) young working families are in the same boat as you with child care and family life at risk. This is a national issue for all working families not just doctors.

As to imposition of a contract that should be fought as it sets a dangerous precedent. The junior doctors need to stop comparing their salaries to those of bankers and negotiate a compromise.

Carrie370 · 21/02/2016 17:46

The BMA formally passed the following policy yesterday: 'The government has broken the original heads of terms agreement it entered into with the BMA in 2013 by trying to deliver services via the junior doctors contract without committing the appropriate funding for the required level of workforce needed to deliver safe services and adequate training. The Junior Doctors' Committee condemns this breach of agreement and demands that any future arrangements for junior doctors be appropriately funded to retain doctors in the UK and protect delivery of the NHS in future '

Basically, this means that the agreement to negotiate on the basis of a neutral cost envelope for JDs' salaries was made before the Tory manifesto pledge of a 7 day NHS, within which they now conflate the JD contract.

The government are likely to be in trouble big time now.

mybabywakesupsinging · 21/02/2016 18:21

Not sure why some think there is a public contribution to doctor's training - beyond that of anyone who is in higher education of any kind?
Medical students pay fees at university like any other student.
"Junior" (non-consultant grade) doctors work full-time. As in many other jobs, they pay themselves for training courses essential to career progression and job retention, and also pay substantial fees for necessary postgraduate examinations.
So there's no need to speculate that they should pay anything back if they choose to leave the profession, as has been suggested above.

It would be lovely to leave when 48 rota hours had finished as a previous poster suggests but in an attempt to provide good quality of care most juniors in my own speciality average around 1-2 hours extra a day above their rota hours - obviously some days are longer than others, and some work late more, but that's an average.

If doctors don't elect to undertake training in specialities that deal with the twenty-four-seven areas of care (A&E, ITU, acute medicine, general surgery, obstetrics and so on), how will these posts be filled iin the future? Will Trusts be told to maintain quality of service, then reprimanded for the overspend using locums causes - this is already a problem with agency costs for nurses and in some Trusts in medical locum costs are already an issue.

Have to say that the fact the nature of the public debate does shine a light on the complete ineffectiveness of the opposition at the moment.

funnyperson · 21/02/2016 20:45

Totally agree with your last sentence mybabywakesupsinging

Ambroxide · 21/02/2016 21:41

Some of you may be interested in signing this:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/120753

LineyReborn · 21/02/2016 22:12

That petition has now got 89,000+ votes, Ambroxide.

Ambroxide · 21/02/2016 22:33

Yes. If it gets more than 100,000, parliament will consider debating it.

Peaceandloveeveryone · 21/02/2016 22:37

teachers, firemen, policemen etc What about nurses married to nurses who work opposite shifts? Sorry OP but many (too many) young working families are in the same boat as you with child care and family life at risk. This is a national issue for all working families not just doctors.

Funny person I am so glad that you said this as I had to give up nursing due to shift work and unpredictability for child care.

ABetaDad1 · 21/02/2016 22:41

Unfortunately the Referendum is now going to sweep aside the JD debate for the next three months by which time the Govt will have quietly imposed the contract. In addition, if there are more strikes the impact will be minimal over summer when demand for emergency health care is lower.

Don't tell me the timing of this wasn't planned meticulously.

BenGummerMP · 22/02/2016 11:24

Thank you all for your comments and questions on this. NHS employers has published full details on the new contract including a factsheet, Q&A and a pay calculator. You can find details on their website: t.co/YrzgCXgfET and on their Facebook page: www.facebook.com/NHSEmployers/

You can also find more information about seven day services in the NHS’s own plan for the future, the Five Year Forward View, published here: www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/futurenhs/

WhoTheFuckIsSimon · 22/02/2016 11:27

Total cop out.

Ive read all the spun drivel before and it doesn't answer the questions asked on this thread. I want you to answer our questions.

Swipe left for the next trending thread