Need to re-adjust expectations of ds about school - help

[DidEinsteinsMum]

Ok ds is 4 G&T prob, Apergerus poss. He expects school to be sit down learning.
He had an individual visit for 1 hour prior to the normal visit schedule a fun phonics thing. He has been complaining it was boring and is already making reluctant noises about going back next week for his 2nd official visit (this time without parents) His dad reports that he seemed to enjoy it. I suspect he enjoyed it on face value but later felt it did not fulfil his stimulus requirements. He is a high stimulus input kid. I know the school is good and have a plan in place for him once they get past the initial induction aspects in sept.

How do i work on the fact that

1. Reception is a bit of work and a good chunk play?
2. It will get better when he starts properally
3. Convince him he wants to go next (thus avoiding the meltdown otherwise expected)
4. Get him to understand that most children want to play and not sit down to lessons at reception (AIBU?)
5. Do i need to talk to the school about ds' feelings - they have been dealing with it since the CAF voted them best to deal.
6. Oh and the good old one : his peers are not stupid!

Maybe i am worrying too much? feel free to kick my butt into perspective

Can I disagree with snorkle's comments about sport! Certain sports can be good for socially awkward pupils because it forces them into a team situation where they have to interact, communicate and co-operate. And certain activities can be an intellectual challenge if they have to follow a complex series of orders or gameplans. One of DS's friends failed a trial the other day because, although he is brilliantly and naturally sporty, his brain could not process the rapidfire and purposefully difficult instructions.

fembear, my view on sport is that primarily it's good for physical fitness & a healthy lifestyle & general wellbeing. I don't think intellectual challenge is a primary feature/benefit of most sports though my post only said that maybe it wouldn't count as intellectually challenging (especially for a bright child). I didn't comment on the social aspects of it at all - though generally speaking mixing & cooperating with others isn't a bad thing for social skills.

So I'm a bit confused as to what you're disagreeing with me about. I'm not disagreeing with you as far as I can tell.

"Music, sport, chess, maybe a language would all be good things to try that are also intellectually challenging (OK maybe not sport"

I was only pointing out that some sports are intellectually challenging ... I didn't mean to cause an argument!

DEM: you talked earlier about piano. I think that a teacher will try to dissuade you at this stage simply because the child's hands aren't physically big enough to span the keys.
Keyboards are a different matter.

dd's (y1) project for the last 3 weeks has been to teach herself how to play the recorder. She's been playing obsessively for an hour or so in the mornings before going to school and has made huge progress. She's taught herself how to read music and is now embarking on book 2. She's insisted on doing it all herself and won't accept any help from me.

For a bright child, learning the recorder is a very rewarding project because it doesn't take much time before they're able to play recognisable tunes - and it doesn't matter if they don't have much innate musicality (my dd certainly doesn't!) as they don't need to adjust the pitch. The other benefit is that recorders are very cheap so if he goes off it, it's not several hundred pounds down the drain

no offense taken fembear - I was just confused.

Phew, that's OK then. It's just that I got in a spat yesterday on another thread so I'm feeling a bit paranoid.

"Unfortunatly i have a learning obsessed child who what to know how and why everything works and what the point of things are"
DEM, we had exactly the same thing with DS. As he's growing up we are finding it less stressful - he's widened his interests, he is more able to control his learning and teach himself, he is building on existing skills (like using the PC/using powertools) to find more knowledge etc. But when he was four it was very difficult. (OK, he didn't have Asperger's so your mileage may vary)

bloss, sorry to hear about your early bad experiences. You say you caught up socially by year 7. Do you feel that hampered you in adult life or that you lack adequate social skills now?

"social skills are important but just as a child won't learn algebra until his mind has developed to a certain point, so some social skills will simply be beyond a particular child until they have matured"
Good point.

I'm glad I raised this question of whether such an obsessive chasing of social skills in Reception is necessary (or A Good Thing for Every Pupil right at that early stage!)

I'm still interested in any comments anyone has on how most of the world manages without all this attention to social skills. In the middle east the Koran is the main focus in reception. In Pakistan, it's respect and complex family relationships (there are about 15 different types of uncles and aunties). In India, it's acquiring the ability to learn things by rote which is what a lot of education there depends on. Further east they spend weeks/months learning how to bow properly depending on who you're bowing to and what the occasion is - respect rather than relationships. And given the complexity of the Mandarin alphabet I suspect Chinese kids don't learn much else in Reception.

Are our British children particularly backward socially? Or are we just so reluctant to "push" them academically that we've latched on to the closest non-academic skill to give Reception teachers "something to do"?

well, DadAtLarge, it depends on what country you choose to look at.

The Scandinavian countries aren't doing any formal learning until age 6 (used to be age 7 in Sweden). It isn't all about social skills either before that age, just a recognition that learning is so much more than maths and phonics. They have nurseries there that don't actually have an indoors, because the children are out in the woods all day: all they need is a shed for equipment. In Scandinavia you meet reception classes on public transport all the time, being taken out by their teachers. And they all seem to be really good at crafts- which of course involves a certain amount of maths skills. I doubt that those children are bored, however gifted.

I believe Japan has chosen to back down from its very early academic focus, because they were concerned about the mental state of their children.

What gets me about this country is the very narrow focus of parents, particularly, it seems, parents with gifted children. It is assumed that a gifted child is only going to be stimulated if they are working in a formal setting with traditional subjects, particularly maths and literacy. The three Rs, defined very narrowly. But maths and literacy comes into all sorts of different ways of non-formal learning. There's lots of it in crafts subjects for a start. And learning about the world around you is endlessly stimulating.

Add Scandinavia to my list of countries. I like that broad range of learning and the emphasis on learning practical skills.

I agree that some parents of gifted children have that focus, cory. But considering what a poor job schools do of stimulating gifted children - and the bias against these kids - perhaps parents need to lean that far in the opposite direction just to balance the boat.

I think the problem with all education- and to be fair, that goes for Scandinavia too!- is that you are constantly leaning over to the other side to compensate for something that went before. It's hard not to.

Personally, I would like to see more practical training at an early age in this country- for the sake both of the gifted children and the rest, better support for vocational training but also programmes to stimulate gifted children and make their school days interesting and worthwhile (though have to say, I'm not actually complaining personally; dd has done all right).

My Scandinavian friends envy us the strong emphasis on the written and spoken language (literature learning is excellent in Sweden- they know a lot about foreign literature, but there is very little effective teaching of creative writing), the drama provision and, in some cases, the objective exam system (they have continuous assessment).

but you can see where these educators are coming from- it's about compensating for something that went before; the old system was very socially divisive and a lot of talent was lost

and the English education gurus are clearly worried about anti-social behaviour

speaking as somebody with two disabled children, I have to say I am thankful that their peers have been taught a lot about social skills and social behaviour

dd is much happier here than she would have been at the school I attended, where there was very little understanding of bullying or how to deal with it; nobody ever told us these things

she has certainly benefitted from the teaching her peers received in reception

not wasted time if it means that a child that is intermittentlyt incontinent and intermittently wheelchair bound can get through her early schooling without trauma

wouldn't have happened at my school, I can tell you

Message withdrawn

The Scandinavian system doesn't work. The gifted kids do get bored and do get damaged. There ois very little or no variation or extension work for the brighter kids. I have cousin with personal experiance of the system and they actually think that the english system which acknowledges that children learn at different rates and takes account of it is better then their system. This was very envident during conversations over easter when we were discussing the different schools our kids are due to start this autumn. Their kids are 6 1/2 and starting in August. Mine is 4 1/2 and starting sept. What you see isnt always what you get. The kids do have good social skills and self confidence and allowed to be who they are. But that doesnt mean that the school system works for G&T!

Some people are going to think it works, some aren't.

It worked well for me and for my brothers, at least one of whom was definitely g&t. And it's worked well for my nephews and nieces and their friends.

Sorry to be dense, but how can your friends know the school system won't work for their children if they haven't even started it yet?

Because they have been through it themselves, because their mum teaches in it, because our aunt is a social worker that picks up the pieces of the G&T kids booted out of it. Their dad is currently in charge of trying to make the system work to sort these issues out.

But there are several scandinavian countries and we might not be talking about the same one

DEM, my comments about Scandinavian system is that it doesn't have an emphasis on social skills in reception and they don't churn out social inepts in droves.

i.e. it's like so many other countries - no SS in Reception.

"DAL - No, I think I have excellent social skills now"
Great! Developing them later didn't cause your social skills permanent damage. People in DEM's position should be reassured by that. It's not such a big deal in Reception.

"i think some of you need to go and spend some time working/onserving in a reception classroom. all this talk of how little use reception is! i am quite.."
I'm sure there's a lot of learning. All my comments about this are to those people who believe that SS is the most important thing children learn in Reception and the most important thing they should be learning in Reception.

Actually DAL the main focus of the scandinavian pre-schools that i have experience of do have social skills as the main emphasis. its just they dont have reception so to speak and start school more at yr1 its mostly sit down classes. The reception is done in preschool with the main point being to prepare the children socially and emotionally for schools whilst trying to ensure they are well rounded children.

Well having two children with autism I feel for you and your little boy.
My son Jack now 14 was very much like ds very academically focused and having no interest in children or play.
School was and still is to some extent a miserable affair for him although he now attends an autism base and is recognised as mathematically gifted.
Spending hours on end in the company of your peers who you have no interest in to the detriment of developing your own interests is miserable.
Jack's unit is attached to a mainstream secondary and he doesn't speak to one child in the school of 2000 pupils and avoids them as much as possible.
If I had my time again I would have put definite limits on the academics and pushed the social interaction tbh.
In fact when I had Lucy(6) that is just what I did, I put all my energies into teaching her to play, to socialise and to seek the company of her peers. When she started to teach herself how to read I covered up the text in her books, when she started to tell the time I moved the clock.
We went to playcentres, playgrounds etc anywhere she would find children and I supported her in learning to play.
She started reception far better prepared for school than Jack had and the academics just came but she had the ability to relate to her peers which was far more important.
My first advice would be to ask for a statement of SEN so that ds can recieve individual support and an education tailored to fit his needs.
You need a referral to a paed to press for a proper diagnosis and specialist support.
You need photos of the reception class and all the activities that he will take part in.
You need a social story to prepare him for starting school.
You need to immerse your child in other children's company so find parks and playcentres etc.
You have to teach him to play so initially teach simple sequences eg put teddy's coat on, put him in the buggy. and then teach him to extend these sequences.
You are really short on time so not sure how far you will get but any progress will be good. You will have meltdowns I can guarantee you that but you are doing ds no favours by allowing him to be fully in contol of what he does.
See each meltdown as one less for school because he will need to comply with school routines and activities. Have to say I'm pretty shocked that there hasn't been a whole load of preparation and support put into place to prepare your son for school. School telling you they will sort it when he gets there is setting them and your son up for failure in my experience.

Thank you for your advice.
The school is very well informed on the situation as they attended his CAF and they have been fantastic with advice.
Thankfully they have reported that he has actually interacted well with the other children during his school visits (they get three at ds' school to be which start easy (short with parent) to harder (2hours on own) which i think also helps. PLus he attends a play group which is run by a fantastic woman who has really helped his social skills and buddied him up with a girl who is going to be in his class.

I will however go through the list and make sure that we have covered everything you suggested as it is fantastic advice and social situation role play really works for him. What will be interesting will be how he handles school long term because he is generally trouble when he becomes accustomed to new situations and becomes bored. And I did discover that the phonics games they played during the first visit was the problem. He was frustrated as he already knows it. School are happy with that but i have taken advice and backed away. Creative lego is my friend. He wont play with it but likes to build by instruction. PLus I know he can play if he chooses -its getting him to choose to play that can be tricky. He doesnt see the point at home (unless its board games - battle ships is the new favourite

Sorry am rambling. Really appreciate your advice. Thank you

Opps just read the last bit about school. I think they have plans in place and know they are putting a floating TA in class who can be prioritised to ds if needed but what to see what they are dealing with. They have plans in place already but i think they want to see what effect the prior work has had on the situation.

I think part of the problem is the overprotective worrier who sees everything as a potential meltdown/diaster.

I don't think you are an over protective worrier at all. From what you've written even I feel nervous for your son going into school lol but mine's from experience of my own children lol
I think that what worries me is that there doesn't seem to be rigid plans in place, well thought out strategies and a huge amount of preparation.
Three visits are laughable really and should have only been started after the other preparation with photos and social stories etc had taken place.You see that preparation would have ensured that ds had the right expectations of a reception class.
If I tell you my chidren's introductions took place over the course of a half term maybe you'd get some idea.Then again I made sure my two had statements in place before they started so that ensured their entry was smooth and organised.
Has no one mentioned the need for a statement? I would have thought with ds entering school with the ability he does it will make it very difficult for a teacher to include him in the class and he's likely to need 1 to 1 support to teach him to play and build relationships with his peers.
I understand your worries about the meltdowns, Jack never needed to feel comfortable before his started though usually within five minutes of arrivimg another reason for a statement because Jack could bring the school to a standstill never mind just his class.
Are school aware of the triggers? Do they have strategies in place to keep ds and the others safe? Is there a chill out space? Does ds have a workstation? Will they use a visual timetable? What about the unstructured parts of the day? (huge potential for disaster)
Hundreds of questions but you need to know the answers and be confident that they are the right answers for your ds.
Wishing you lots of luck and strength for the battles ahead because believe me any child on the spectrum going into scchool needs a mum behind him prepared to battle

At the moment we are struggling to get diagnosis and hopefully the school will help this case. They want him statemented as soon as possible hence giving only one term before getting Ed psyc in. Am seeing a pead next week due to other issues and am going to bring it up. Unfortunatly he has learnt not to temper in school but i get all sort of when he gets home. The school are aware of this and I have spent hours in meetings with the school already. There is a chill out room and i think they have avoided direct associate to ta to see if he can form friendships. which he has been making tons of progress on. I think the main kick off point is going to be when they start doing work and he doesn't feel like he is stretched enough but they are planning on giving him stretch work appropriate to his baseline that they are doing in the second week to give him chance to become familiar with the school setting. At the mo he wont even read to his dad but he is a capable reader.

I think I am actually hoping that school have a fee problems so that i loose my 1st time mum, doesnt know about parenting, just wants more attention for child label that medical profession has given me due to doing everything like social situation and targeted work before they decided to get assesment done. As for fighting for him - i dont think that i will need to fight but i do suspect that i shall be very familiar with his teachers and the head (already know the head very well ). Not keen on the split teacher thing but it means that he gets the head of special needs as one of his teachers so that is a plus. They dont do work at tables all their work is done on a mat - which i suspect will be a nightmare as he has major concentration problems with the slightest of distractions unless it is one of his obsessions. No is abig problem at mo but he can be reasoned with so that is ok.

Glad to know my worries are not unfounded but also glad that i thought of most of the questions. Will think about rest. ...
Anything else i need to think/know about?

Ds is now 6 and sounds quite a lot like your son. He is very bright but does not pick up on the subtle social skills that other children do. He struggled a little in reception as he does much better in a structured working environment where he is learning things than being given a choice of "play activities".

He also finds school easy and therefore boring. We are currently taking the tack that yes, he is clever and finds some things easy to learn. However, another thing he is at school to learn is how to get on and relate to other people and that is an area he needs to focus on as he finds it hard in the way that some children find reading hard. If he has had a bad day we try and decode the social situations he was in and ask how he would have liked them to have gone and what he thinks he could have done to get there. I am not sure whether or not this is right but what else to do?