should G&T be considered a Special Educational Need (SEN)

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Starts thread and takes cover!

S?

Where did that come from?

And the recent posts have just strengthened my faith in the education system, SA/SA+ is a lot better then the head in sand approach we had from medical profession.
I don't know if we'll get SA but talk of all social integration aspects a previous poster mentioned and an IEP and a possible Psych Ed assessment. I don't think we'd have had this in some schools. I mention issue when looking and was and horrified how at some schools the procedure for dealing with diagnosed behaviour issues was exclusion! Yep was actually said just like that. Not the school for us!

The difference between education and health issues is that there are legal requirements on LEA's which aren't on health. So for example say a child has speech and language therapy in part 2 or 3 of their statement- that identifies SALT as an educational need and LEA have to provide SALT even if the local health authority has no speech ancd language therapists.

DS1 had SALT in part 2/3 of his statement and his SALT went on maternity leave. The NHS had no maternity cover. So the LEA had to pay for a private SALT to go in. Mind you I had to threaten them with the local govt ombudsmen before they agreed.

But that is the difficulty with things like OT. It is seen more as a health need (some people have successfully argued it is educational) so even for a statemented child it ends up in part 5- where if there is no local OT provision (usually there isn't) well tough you won't get it, even though that piece of paper says your child needs it.

But for children with needs that can be met by some lateral thinking, differentiation and actually treating them as individuals then yes the most important decision is the choice of school. The vast majority of children who are gifted will fall into this category - with needs that can be met with a sympathetic head teacher.

Am wondering if there isn't some sense to seeker's 15:02 post. If your child's giftedness is combined with social or behavioural difficulties, is it not possible to ask for a statement for this? regardless of whether the child is gifted or not?

yes but asking and getting is two different things

Wondering what kind of responses this question would get on a teacher's forum.

DidEinsteinsMum on Tue 16-Jun-09 23:20:17
"yes but asking and getting is two different things"

true, but that is no different from having a child with social or behavioural difficulties who is not gifted

my own experience seems to suggest that there are even more of those around, and their parents find it just as difficult

I meant generally statements seem to be hard to come by no matter what the reason for trying to gain one.

Yes true. It all comes down to proving an educational need. And that difficulty is the reason so many children with say asperger's struggle with school. Their social difficulties could presumably be said to be greater than those of an nt gifted child -after all their diagnosis is recognising a pathological level of need yet they can't access that sort of support.

That's why I said earlier that there's nothing special about gifted children - many parents struggle to arrange that sort of support. some parents of gifted children appear to believe that this sort of support is freely given to children with special needs. It really isn't. Parents have to fight and in some cases sue for it.

dadtlarge the kids that I have dealt with have self harmed due to abuse and cruelty. Not saying they may or may not be gifted and talented. They have had to concentrate more at staying alive from their home life experiences!!

Also getting back to a statement. It is so difficult to get a statement for a child from the lea. My son was very intelligent but dyslexic. I fought for help for him as soon as he was put onto the special needs regster in reception. I did everything, meet with the head, took him to the phsychologist, had meetings at hospital, joined a parent partner group. Wrote letters etc, etc, etc. The list is endless.

He has now left school and is at college doing exceptionally well! Through secondary school he spent his life in low groups because he could not achieve on paper. He didnt want to be different to anybody else so would not want to go to a special class, or be sat with individually , he wouldn't turn up to the class where all the low achievers would sit tests with the sen coordinator. If he did he would have been given extra time. He wanted to fit in with everybody else. When he reads, the words move, his letters jumble and he really struggles to write. He didnt want a label especially a statement. He was very quiet at school and in a class of very disruptive class mates so he would become very frustrated. If he would have been assessed orally his intelligence did not reflect his achievements. He is 17 years old and is absolutely genius with engines, cars, motorbikes. Was exceptional at school with making things. He can see it and he can do it. He is making so much money at the moment. You see a label doesn't always help! It doesn't mean that you are not aware of a childs needs though. I had a huge battle with the LEA and I had tried every avenue. I am sorry to say dadatlarge but statements they are truly like gold dust. All the I will do this / that wont make it happen. Their is not enough funding nor resources. It does come down to money.

I have a 7 year old son with Asperger's who is also highly G&T in Maths. He has just unofficially done his Year 6 SAT's and got 100% thus completing the primary level curriculum. He also years ahead in Science. He has only this last month received a SEN and although on that they recognise his "very high level of intelligence" (their words) I have just received a letter from the LA stating that no extra funding is ever allocated for any gifted child to receive tuition from outside the school, even if you can demonstrate that they have completed the curriculum. Luckily for me, his wonderful school are paying from their own budget to employ a second TA for him to teach him Maths and Sciences at secondary school level. I do think that in this case his G&T should be considered a Special Need and am considering taking it to my MP. Am I wasting my time? Has anyone else ever gone down this route?

As far as I'm aware, and I'm a teacher, G&T is considered part of SEN. SEN means Special Educational Needs, not that a child has learning difficulties. Being gifted or talented means that the child has special needs which must be addressed. I think the term "SEN" has gathered negative expectations, and that's not fair.

vickylaguapa, despite what KembleTwins has said, G&T isn't considered an SEN. A child has SEN only when, according to the legal definition, he has a learning disadvantage or physical disability.

Being gifted or talented does not mean the child has an SEN (though some gifted children have SENs as well).

I have a 7 year old son who seems to be at the same level of ability as your boy.

Your son may be highly gifted - and I'm not suggesting he isn't - but even if he is capable of a 100% in KS2 Maths it could have been as a result of heavy home tutoring rather than natural ability. Given the right advantages at home very many children would be able to clear a 100% in maths by 7. I'm not saying this is what you did but your claim for support seems to be based on his achievement rather than any unusual natural ability, an obsession he has with maths or difficulty he has in the classroom.

Unfortunately there are teachers like KembleTwins who don't know much about either SEN or G&T. Many haven't the foggiest notion about catering for gifted children. You are very lucky your son is in a school that seems to go to great lengths to cater for his individual needs. I'd leave it at that.

It has been looked into in some depth by several people and you have no legal right to a statement and after hours tuition (is that what you mean?) purely on the grounds of giftedness. And I think that's a good thing. Unless your son is having some difficulty it wouldn't be fair to divert funds from very needy SEN children just to push him further up the curriculum.

DadAtLArge - thanks for your answer. I know that most people assume he has had tutoring, we are on Income Support so no chance of that! I am struggling to keep up with his maths as the moment but I do answer any questions he has.

Just to clarify, he was assessed at CAMHS at the schools volition, an his results on the WISCIV (I think that was the test) were so high the school put him up 3 years in Maths for one term, at the end of which he sat the SATS with the rest of the class. He has had NO extra tuition than this. An Ed PSych suggested his abilities bordered on the Savant level for Maths and Sciences, not sure if he meant it as a nice thing to say!

Anyway, I know that many children are capable of this level of achievement if pushed very hard. My grounds for argument were that the Statement he already has specifically rules out any extra tuition AT school from outside agencies (i.e a tutor paid for by the LA) to enable him to access the level of education he is capable of. I thought that the LA had a legal obligation to enable every child to reach their potential. Not sure if I have any energy left for taking this further,as sven getting him Statemented on the basis of his Asperger's has taking three years!

And I do appreciate anyone taking the time to answer this - very difficult to access appropriate help without being accused of bragging/being told how luck you are etc!

very difficult to access appropriate help without being accused of bragging/being told how luck you are
Trust me, I know how it feels! Even in the G&T section here on Mumsnet some people (including teachers) have difficulty accepting that sometimes some kids are just naturally much more intelligent than other kids or considerably more able in particular subjects. And when schools do admit it they are often reluctant to give that child any "further advantage" when there are so many children lagging behind and the teacher's time is already at a premium.

The LA doesn't, unfortunately, have many any legal obligations when it comes to gifted children. I've done a fair amount of research in the last few months on G&T, National Strategies, how gifted child should be taught, various LA guidelines, reports on the teaching of gifted children in the UK, numerous OFSTED reports and individual school policies on teaching of the more able. I know more about G&T than most G&T coordinators do. There is a myriad of legal obligations on the schools' work but that's more ensure they carry out their social services brief. When it comes to G&T it's all about "aiming" to do some things and "hoping" to achieve other things and working towards certain goals. Sometimes it's as cut and dried as aiming to work towards reaching agreement on what's best practice.

Last year about 5 million was spent on G&T. Most of it went in admin and the amount that reached schools was equivalent to £7 per gifted child.

Here's a thread with my story. In three years they failed to even put my DS on the G&T register and finally did it when their arm was twisted (by a SATs moderator) and my request for a meeting. He seems to be at the same level as your boy and they had him sitting in Y2 adding 10 to numbers like 25 and 37, doing his five times tables etc. I do think you're lucky... in how your DS's school is responding to his ability.

Dad At Large - I think it is sad that your son is not being catered for, but I think that it is unusual, that no effort is being made to cater for his needs. Maybe you need to look at other schools?

As a teacher I would like to say that you have to appreciate that within a class of 30, there has to be a certain amount of 'teaching to the masses'. Having said this there is no reason that during a whole numeracy session he couldn't have some work given to him that is challenging for him.

If you approach school in the tone that you post on here, then I wouldn't be surprised if you get teachers' backs up. Could this be part of the problem? You are very rude about teachers (even if you have had some bad experiences, I can assure you that the majority of teachers are not like this). You may be an expert on G and T, but isn't everyone an expert on their own child? In 15 years I have taught only 2 really gifted children (I'm not talking about the top 10%, I'm talking about those that are working years above their classmates). That's 2 out of 400+ children, of course I'm not an expert, if I had to be an expert on every need/ condition that I encountered then I wouldn't have time to teach/ plan/ assess the children in my class. I do however find out as much as I can about each child's needs and do my best to cater for them, within the constraints that I have.

I suggest that if you are looking for an expert on G and T to teach your child, and an individualised curriculum for him that you should home school.

loadsofsmiles, you may notice that my comments about the school used the past tense. As I explained in my thread, I took a positive approach with the school. They're taking measures - including external assessment of DS's ability and an IEP - and I'm volunteering to help them in several ways. Relations with the school are very cordial.

Rude about teachers? Have a look at what one teacher above said about SEN. She seems to think that the definition of SEN is negative and unfair to SEN children (blissfully ignorant of the fact that it's a DCSF definition). How can you be teaching for 12 years and know neither what SEN nor G&T mean? There are some excellent teachers but it's strange how no teacher here admits that some fall far short of the ideal. Thousands are so incompetent they are worth immediate sacking (I know, I know, none of you like Chris Woodhead for saying things like that).

"Having said this there is no reason that during a whole numeracy session he couldn't have some work given to him that is challenging for him."
I agree. But many teachers think their work ends there. It doesn't. All this sideways stretching etc., is all very good but children like these need to be learning new things, moving forward, not just keeping the seats warm till the others catch up. Ah, but the 30 number does get in the way? Sure, and I'll have no complaint when teachers give a child who is two years ahead the same attention as they give one who is two years behind. Let's admit it, the way teacher/school performace is evaluated doesn't exactly encourage fair play across the board.

"I can assure you that the majority of teachers are not like this"
I'm sure a lot of teachers, like above and other examples on MN, think they are not like this. They refuse to accept when other teachers (even ones they haven't met) are talking through their hats. What chance a teacher admitting she doesn't cater adequately for the more intelligent children in her class? Or that she is prejudiced against children from "advantaged" homes?

I accept your point about the percentages not meriting your special training. However, I'd like to make two points. When you get a child with a banana allergy or some other rare SEN, aren't you required to know about their needs PDQ? Why is that not the case with gifted children i.e. you have to learn about it if you have one in your class?

Point two: It has been mentioned here before about one or two children in a lifetime. Somehow it seems to be taken for granted that there isn't a smooth progession in ability from your "normal" top 10% to these very highly able children. That's not how it works in real life.

Do people honestly believe their children are extremely aggressive violent simply because they are CLEVER? I think that is just putting your head in the sand. There is clearly a separate and more important problem with this kid that needs to be tackled very quickly. Einstein didn't go around attacking people! (atom bomb aside, of course )

"extremely aggressive violent...this kid"
Which kid?

DidEinsteinsmum posted: "saintlydamemrsturnip the black eyes, bruises and broken furniture I have had to put with for years due to ds being G&T is not my wish for him to be special. It is my wish to feel that I can live in a safe environment and not be scared of my son."

This is not a cleverness problem.

Actually the issue is the fact that he can understand educationally stuff that he is not emotionally capable of handling which is why it get released in violent and aggression particularly when he is incredibly frustrated. It is not purely a brightness issue but the brightness is part of the problem.

Einstein was incapable for functioning in the real world and had frequent periods of depression/mental problems. My son is sweetness and delight mostly but is in capable of coping with any change. He has announched that this summer age 4 1/2 he wants to write a book about his space research. And has spent the last 4 days solid with his head space books. I am still arguing with the gp about retesting for aspergers. Which is a suspected part of the problem but is a bugger to get diagnosed before they start school.