should G&T be considered a Special Educational Need (SEN)

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Starts thread and takes cover!

As for hyper sensitivity..... Children with hypersensitivities require occupational therapy and sensory integration. It is almost impossible for any child to access ot via education as it is classed a health not educational need. Even children with profound physical needs cannot access ot via statements.

What tends to happen in the gifted group is parents read about how hypersensitive their child is then use that to confirm their specialness. Get the kid on a home ot programme fgs - far more use than just recognizing it. My son has very profound sensory integration needs so we have worked on it daily since he was three years old. He has never accessed this via education and the lea refused to put it in part 2/3 of his statement. We took the view it wasn't worth fighting but that was our choice.

DS1 will trkae SAts, howvr his reulst will not be publsihed. DS3 if I am lucky might spell SAT. Theyare both extremely vulnerable- at the most absic level, that innocent not even out to next door alone in a quiet village sort of vulnerable.

I am not certain how much some poele think might be accessed through SEN funding? DS1 has 10 hours a week sahred 1-1; definitely on a par with a few trips a week to university. DS3- ah yes, he only got 16 hours until the school admitted they couldnt keep him safe so we got his SNU palce at long last after 2 years asking. 16 hours 1-1meant that for 16 hours a week he was sat without support,very limited in his verbal ability and actually injured in that time (his speech is now not only damaged by ASD but by scarringa round his moutyh that emans he can't physically talk clearly).

It was the safety issue that did it: years of bullying, self har, anorexia (yep, in anine year old boy) and violence have not achieved it yet for ds1.

there's a cap at which schooling costs more in MS than in a specialist environment. Welucked out: for odd reaons the cost of making ds3 safe ran into many thousands (conservation area, specialist fencing needed). But generally, anything above 16 hours here has to be administered in a specialist school, and I am not certain I would want a G&T child of mine to attend one of these, on the basis that a very important skill for G&T kids is scoial integration and tolerance of those less able- who will after all be everywhere they go in life.

So my questions are

1. how is the current system providing an unsuitable education ( it's obvious it could be better- could be for every childbut you need to show it is unsuitable) And
2. what support needs to be in place to make it suitable? I agree any child with sensory integration needs should have them met, but currently that does not come under education and so parents have a choice - whether their child has si needs due to sn or giftedness- you choose to fight it and demonstrate that it is an educational need or you do what we did and do it yourself.

"So again there is nothing particularly special about gifted children..."

That, fortunately, is not a view shared by the researchers, the DCSF, National Strategies, the LAs or education authorities in the US, Australia, Japan and elsewhere.

Well that's the thing isn't it peachy. Unless your child has a statement ( and most children with sn don't - a lot of those that do are fairly worthless as they are so vague they give the child nothing) then there aren't huge sums of money available for the schools to support their needs and provide that suitable education.

I meant there was nothing particularly special about attempting to get the needs met of this group.

You might like to answer the questions I made above about a suitable education.

And the examples that you gave e.g. sensory needs are not covered by lea's for any child. Well not without a battle to demonstrate that it is an educational rather than health need.

''Some gifted children are more vulnerable that many SEN children ... and you'd be surprised at how similar many of the vulnerabilities are.''

''The DCSF recognises the "vulnerability" and extent of vulnerability of gifted children and advises teachers about it.''

In what way are gifted children 'more vulnerable than many SEN children? '

Can I ask a question?

I get that people want specialised assistance and guaranteed input for their children, who woudln't?

Why through the SN system though?Why not through a shoring up of the G&T system with similar provisions?

The SEN system might be called that in effect it's the Disabled Children system. It's run by specialists in THAt field, supported by people committed to providing advice for SN kids; usually charities run and founded by parents who have battled the system themselves.

I'm looking at volunteering for one of these groups next year as a precursor to postgrad study, my specialty isn't G&T. I acn however write a killer statement request for a child with most disabilities.

Surely giving the G&T register funding and legal status would suffice? And then you can also sit and freta bout it, as we do in the SEN / SN world!

But peachy g&t kids have the same rights as kids with sn now - the right to a suitable education. If children who are g&t are not receiving that their parents can do the same as those of us in sn world do in that situation and take it up with the school/ lea and ultimately the courts.

dadatlarge - those links are truly lovely, honestly i'm just still not understanding exactly what you want for a gifted child that isn't covered by adequate differentiation? none of them suggest anything else tbh. and i think even the most avid daily mail reader will recognise the 'dumbing down is sounding the death knell of our worldwide position as academic heavyweight' theory.

my comments concerning camhs/ secondary visits and uni were an attempt to guess exactly what you were attempting to argue was necessary provision for these special (more special than 'special' lol) children?

i do hope you aren't accusing me of being anti-elite btw... (i'll rip up my phd application now) i'm just failing to recognise what you are arguing for...

And there are parent run support systems for g&t out there. Just as most people taking on an lea to secure sn provision do so with help from ipsea- again parent led.

That's my point really - there is nothing different about getting the needs of a g&t child met- the system does exist and there are rules that can be challenged. Many parents if kids with sn do that year in year out- no reason why parents of a g&t child shouldn't join them.

just seen this thread.
I always thought that any child that needed extra support would be said to have SEN.
SEN nad SN are 2 different things.
my dd who has severe cp has sn and sen.
my son had SEN due too poor hearing.
hardly the same....

saintlydamemrsturnip the black eyes, bruises and broken furniture I have had to put with for years due to ds being G&T is not my wish for him to be special. It is my wish to feel that I can live in a safe environment and not be scared of my son. The fact that i fear this crossing over into the school environment (and it did at nursery on many occassions when he got frustrated at the lack of understanding of his peer group) scares the living daylights out of me and I want to try to make sure that he has a chance to access the education he deserves without endangering the other children!

Yes but what is underlying that behaviour? If it is issues with sensory integration then he will not receive occupational therapy via the lea. Not without an expensive legal battle from you.

I am not saying that is right. We have ds1's annual review this week and I will be bringing up his need for sensory integration and the fact that we all end up bruised because those needs are not being met. However, he is extremely unlikely to access that via school ( although school staff are bruised too) as it us not an educational need therefore the kea will not fund it full stop. He may be able to get it via social services.

Which is my point children who are g&t do have access to the same support as those with severe disabilities ( my don will require lifelong 24 hour care - his needs ate profound). I would welcome access to sensory integration for every child who needs it- but that is not a gifted issue.

Likewise if your child is beating you up because his social development is delayed that is not seen as an educational need so the giftedness us irrelevant and you will have the same issues as any parent with a child with delayed social development.

At nursery the first incident of major violence was because he at 3 figure out what gravity was, tried to explain and talk to the other kids (who being 3 were blissfully ignarant) and got frustrated so lashed out.

The second was because the play leader insisted he had to trace his name (when 3 1/2) and refused to let ds just write it, which he had been doing unaided since 2 1/2yo.

They also told him he shouldn't be reading and writing indpendantly at 3 1/2 and told me infront of him that i was damaging him by letting him do so. He reacts badly to being dumbed down or being bored. He is self motivate in learning to a point where it is obsessive and get violent and frustrated when prevented from doing so. I have seen more museums in the last 2 1/2ys then the rest of my life put together

His problem is that he can't relate to his peer group but put him with 8yo who don't treat him like a baby and he can hold his own.

2shoes in the LEA system SN and SEN are dealt with together; in relaity to get a statement (or probably any help) you need SN yes.

MrsT I do get that they all have the same rights- I can't be exoplaining myself well, sorry- I suppose I'm talking about the system as an entir4ety: comprising syupport services, etc alltailored to kids with the needs of G&T children.

I know a lot of them would have nneeds shared by other children- bullying, isolation, difficulty in behavioural issues, etc.

But someone in a support role would need to be able to say waht was required: I coudln't do that. I know a child with SN benefits from a/B, that these schools deal with X and are appropriate for children in whicha reas...

I couldn'ttell you which schools are great with G&T (actually I could but only through bad luck), or how to best deal with a childs needs if G&T.

I don't know, to me I think the better solution involves giving the G&T register equivalent status, I now the kids already have equivalent rights (after all e're all botn equal) but sometimes it is nice to be sable to have a code statingwhat thee are, resources to access. But frankly, if it atkles me 6 weeks to get to see a parent advisor already, I don't want it takng 12.

DEEM a child who is extremely aggressive should be dealt with within the G&T system, esp. if ythey have problems relating to their peer group.

Sounds like SA /SA+ would be an appropriate intervention there

Which rather backs up what Mrs T was saying tbh

Those are social issues though and there isn't provision to meet those for any child via the education system. I am not saying that is right I am saying it is not just a gifted issue. So for example an academically able child with asperger's will find it very difficult to access the support they need e.g. Support at playtimes because that is not an educational need.

So my point really is that currently those issues are not covered for anyone. Yes I believe that it would be better if those needs were met ( and in fact some schools do manage quite well, others are not so good) but it is something that affects far more than the gifted. That's why so many children with sn end up excluded- there is no provision to meet those needs in the current system.

'And there are parent run support systems for g&t out there. Just as most people taking on an lea to secure sn provision do so with help from ipsea- again parent led.

That's my point really - there is nothing different about getting the needs of a g&t child met- the system does exist and there are rules that can be challenged. Many parents if kids with sn do that year in year out- no reason why parents of a g&t child shouldn't join them. '

All true, I guess I just wouldn't wish that on anyone else in all truth.

DEM- just a thought (my DS1 has similar behaviours to your child so can understand a lot of where you are coming from- could easily ahve written your post). Has he had an assessment by Ed Psych (other than G&T stuf)... i'm thinking a lot of intervention that work for ds1 might equally work for your child, such as circle of friends, social skills groups, anger management. When a child is aggressive it'snot always the cause that needs addressing- they will always encounter things that make them angry- but the behaviours they attach to it. DS1 won't ever be able to remove NT people rom his world, so the input focusses on helping him deal with those frustrations rather than just trying tio kill (I don't overstate) the random person he ascribes as guilty.

He's also in a special intervention program now aimed at atckling thsoe likely to end up in prison, but he's somewhat older.

The other things I can suggest are=- looking at salycylates (sp) in the diet and a gluten free diet (worked fror someone I know not on the spectrum),and we'regetting a bed from fledglings that can't be trashed next time we replace ds1's, getting a bit silly in the furniture dept here ATM!

"That's my point really - there is nothing different about getting the needs of a g&t child met"
And you can stick to it as much as you like but the education system thinks otherwise. From a personal viewpoint my DS's Head thinks it's different. So I have an IEP and various other inputs for DS and I'm happy with that. I appreciate this will rile some people.

"i'm just still not understanding exactly what you want for a gifted child "
You're not understanding because you're trying not to. I'll summarise my position:

• Not all bright C are gifted
• Not all gifted C have unusual needs
• Some gifted C are highly vulnerable
• Some gifted C have very exceptional needs (not catered for just by "differentiation")
• In many schools none of the above C (vulnerable, exceptional needs or not) are being catered for as they should be
• Clubbing G&T with SEN will only cause further confusion
• People often don't realise that some gifted Cs needs may be more acute than the needs of some SEN C
• There is a cabal that, for personal/political reasons, is vehemently opposed to any specialist provision for any gifted children

Why do I have this feeling that some will have difficulty understanding the word "some"?

About what I want for them, I want

• teachers to RTFM*
• teachers to implement the FM*
• teachers to be educated with quality information on giftedness and how to cater for it in the class

(accepted that there are a few* teachers very clued up about giftedness, the G&T and their responsibilities)

That would be a good start.

In truth we cant answer for your Head, othetr than that there'snothing I can dispute there (with the caveat I have a small boy crying to attend to and am v v tired LOL)

Dad at Large I don't think anyone is riled that you have specifically made the effort to ensure that your child's needs are met. Quite the opposite in fact.

That has been my point all along- those things are there to be accessed - the same provision is available to those who need it. You have accessed them more successfully that many children with SN. So the issue is .....?

The term SEN in schools is used for children who require support over and above good practice differentiation. Which would not include many of those identifed as being academically 'gifted' in the Gifted and Talented programme. Like low achievers, they require appropriate work in order to stay engaged. There are of course children who do require provision beyond normal class differentiation. And they should get it of course, adequately funded (although that isn't going to happen because God knows that SEN provision isn't adequately funded either). IME there are rather fewer of them than children with SEN as commonly defined.

I think that G&T 'gifted' children as opposed to gifted gifted children (IYSWIM) may well require different inputs depending on the school they attend. At my school (national challenge) there issues with being even common or garden G&T which may well not arise in for example in a highly selective school for the same sort of child. But then every child deserves that kind of personalised input. Every child matters and all that.

S