should G&T be considered a Special Educational Need (SEN)

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Starts thread and takes cover!

I get annoyed with the assumption that those with SN get their funding and needs met just like that. With LEA's just handing out money to meet the needs of those with SN's.

This is so far from the truth. I know many people who have had to go to tribunal. I know many people who have had to fight for years to get basic educational needs met. Even our intitial statement which was fairly straightforward in terms of process took about a year, a lot of my time and a lot of meeting (and I had to apply for it myself).

If a child is so gifted that their needs cannot be met in a regular classroom with differentiated work then this option is open to those parents as well. The law as it is provides an opportunity for those extraordinarily gifted children to be statemented (which would then provide the additional funding/resources). The current system allows for that. Not many parents of gifted children seem prepared to take on the system though.

SO, DadAtLarge, you are talking about the "once or twice in every teacher's lifetime child"?

DadAtLarge. LEA's are not allowed to operate blanket policies. Anyone can apply for a statement for their child. The issue that those with gifted children will have is exactly the same as the issue parents of children with SN have. You have to prove the education they are receiving without financial support is not suitable. LEA's do not have to provide the best education for a particular child (whether gifted, average of with SEN) they have to provide a suitable education.

most children can be disruptive especially boys as they are usually very physical and full of lifes energy! This doesnt apply to g & t it applies to boys. In my opoinion boys should be taught differently anyway, because they learn differently, love competition etc etc. I should no I have 4 boys of my own and all very physical!! They need to burn off their energy. If a child i.e. gifted and talented does not get any attention will not cause them to go off the rails nor self harm. I work with kids who self harm and they have serious underlying issues, usually very damaged kids. I can say that kids who get bored in general especially within secondary schools can go off the rails. Peer pressure mainly. Also it isn't cool for boys to achieve in their peer grouos but these are secondary school issues. Boys in general where ever they are academically can be disruptive. Full of mischief!

Mrs T, they may have the same issues but the gifted children are not eligible to apply for SEN funding no matter how gifted they are. For the purpose of SEN funding they have to demonstrate not unsuitable education but a physical or learning disability.

I'm not saying that they should be allowed but I'd like to clear up that this is not really an option for parents of gifted children.

seeker, it's more than once or twice in a lifetime if teachers look properly. I've a six year old DS who is a few years ahead of his peers in maths. We consider him a bit on the bright side yet his Head and G&T coordinator - with 60 years of teaching experience between them - say they've never come across someone so gifted.

BS

But, yes, I'm not talking everyone in the top 10%.

So, if your ds and his teachers are anything to go by, the it IS once or twice a lifetime....

"I'm not talking "gifted", I'm talking gifted. Children gifted in some subjects, like maths, need a lot more than a trip to the library. Boys in particular need competition, need goals to beat..."

Now that's a generalisation and a half. Most of the adults I know who were gifted as children (and that is mostly men) are very about externally-imposed goals - they tended to set their own goals which included understanding something or learning how to do a particular kind of calculation or make a particular kind of explosion . No external impetus needed, and very cheap to cater for. Not true of all, of course, but neither is the idea that gifted mathematicians need competition.

Not at all. Some teachers get lots in a lifetime. Many gifted children - particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds without parents to fight their case - are not recognised even when they are off the scale.

"If a child i.e. gifted and talented does not get any attention will not cause them to go off the rails nor self harm."
And this applies to all gifted children? Great! Spread the word and rewrite all the books.

"I work with kids who self harm and they have serious underlying issues, usually very damaged kids."
I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few of them were gifted to start with and didn't get the proper attention because of the ignorance of their teachers.

"they tended to set their own goals"
So all of them needed goals, then?

DadAtLarge - gifted children HAVE been awarded statements- so it must be possible. Even if it isn't then the LEA still has a legal requirement to provide a suitable education and if a gifted child is not receiving this then the child can sue.

This is effectively what happens when parents of children with SEN go to tribunal. They have to prove that the education their child is receiving is not suitable. They cannot argue that provision Y is 20 grand more expensive than provision X but so much better their child will achieve more and reach their potential, they have to show that provision X is unsuitable and therefore their child needs provision Y.

Off the top of my head I can think of 7 friends who have had to go to tribunal to get their child's SEN met (so do the above and have the above argument). If I count people I know rather than just friends I am probably in the 30's. There is nothing to stop the parents of gifted children from doing exactly the same. Go and have the argument with the LEA. Remortgage the house. Borrow money from family to take the LEA to court. Plenty of parents of kids with SN have had to do exactly that.

Gifted children get statemented only when they have a disability in addition to the giftedness. I'd be interested in any example you've got to the contrary (as would all the parents of children with disabilities who didn't succeed in getting a statement)

'. I know many people who have had to fight for years to get basic educational needs met'

Absolutely, as MrsT knows we've spent several years trying to put suitable education in palce for the ds's.... ds3 is now carterd for (a SNU) but ds1 is far from this point, and ds2 (arrghhh) has recently beena dded to the Register of SEN for probable dyspraxia.

There should be ways of obtaining extra funding if required yes, but I suspect many aprents would fair expire in shcok at what it takes in order to get there- and indeed the compromises.

Three is a cost to all things; for kids with SN it often means travelling big distances, parents unable to work from drop off arrangements, seemingly constant IEP meetings...... it'snot all just laid out as I know I assumed in my naive days.

see, to start with i really thought this was a g&t/sen thread that was actually being debated, but instead it has succumbed to the usual.

dadatlarge - i'm still interested what a gifted child would require that would equal the cost of meeting lds? maths competitions? a couple of trips a week to local secondary/ uni? a camhs referral and ongoing therapy?

i am interested, honestly, but i just get the impression you have no idea what you're even arguing.

a local child, incidentally, as i mentioned earlier, did go to tribunal over g&t (it started as a primary school place application, natch.) reading the reports however, she was no more gifted than you or i, but her parents were prepared to tantrum because they didn't want her going to the local underperforming state school. you are quite right that many parents fail to ensure the best provision is available for their dcs, but that is the same whether you are talking about ld's or the more able child
i've lost count of the number of children with quite severe issues who are not given support to access learning because their parents either do not have the ability or the strength to fight their corner against the establishment.

sad, but true. and finite resources should not be eked out further by lumping able children into the already over-burdened sen system.

you are talking tosh, dal. the child here had no disability, and yet the lea eventually agreed to fork out the money to pay to support her 'gifted' status. (to the annoyance of parents of many equally able children i might add)

my 'gifted' (lol) ds doesn't need goals. he'd rather sit on his backside and watch everyone else work tbh. but if something catches his interest, he's away.

and if i had a pound for every time i've heard that 'never seen anything like it in all my years of teaching' line i'd be a rich woman (who would be paying for private schooling) lol.

Three's a scheme here where kids across the age and ability ranges but with a focus on G&T are taken out to the Uni by specialist workers and students for extra learning days. They also run mentoring in schools (I was a mentor when at Uni).

Perhaps rather than campaigning to be included in a bureaucratioc nonsensical system such as SEN, parents of G&T kids would be better set trying to get their LEA to set up Uni inks in this manner?

our lea accesses the yg&t stuff at canterbury, which runs day-schools and parents conferences.

sometimes these even discuss issues concerning co-existing sn and g&t - the last one at half term discussed AS/ASD for example.

My profoundly gifted son (now 15 yr 10) has been bored pretty much all his school life and rarely extended
However he is the top of his group for every subject abdexcels. He is happy being with his peers and aspires to attend Cambridge for which he already has an invite for Maths.

Yes I would have loved him to have had more breadth and depth extension at school, but not at the expense of other children needing more assistance.

This has become a slightly contentious point within our house as my 6 yr old DD who has Noonan Syndrome along with serious visual issues and some fine motor and gross motor delays.

She is also gifted so it transpires, while not as much so as my eldest (at this stage by comparison anyway) and the amount of work going into making sure she is extended because her gifted label means that she needs to be kept at that level and not be "let down" by the teaching.

It could just be that things have changed in 9 yrs of yr1 teaching goals, but it certainly makes me question what the labels are for and who they benefit?

Dadatlarge you are misunderstanding me.EVERY child whether the brightest it the most disabled has the right to a suitable education. That's it nothing more. If they are not receiving this then this can be argued in the courts. It is something that parents of children with sn have had to do ( look at some examples of case law on ipsea) fairly regularly.

You appear to believe that having a disability is enough to get needs magically met. Frankly that is laughable. Do the same as parents of children with sn whose needs are not met and go to court. The right to a suitable education is exactly the same.

''You're wrong about vulnerability, I'm afraid. It's a generalisation that, unfortunately, even teachers make. Some gifted children are more vulnerable that many SEN children''

Dad at large, I am thinking about children with SEN who are more vulnerable than gifted children. How is a child who can't communicate or has a very low IQ on par with a G and T child in regards to being vulnerable?

"You appear to believe that having a disability is enough to get needs magically met."
Hmm, since that is not my position and not something I'd suggest it's strange that you drew that conclusion.

As often with these threads there are some who take their viewpoint that if one gifted child doesn't have any special needs then none do.

"finite resources should not be eked out further by lumping able children into the already over-burdened sen system."
Yeah, sure, if they are academically able then they can be sent to the library to get them out of the way while we deal with the ones who are going to show us up in the SATs.

"maths competitions? a couple of trips a week to local secondary/ uni? a camhs referral and ongoing therapy?"

Anti-elitism needs to stop
Gifted Children: Myths and Realities
The multimodality of gifted thinkers
Differentiated Curriculum for gifted children - a teacher's take

There have been various studies conducted into asynchronous development specific to gifted children and the problems it causes, numerous books on catering for gifted children in the classroom, conditions like hyper-sensitivity that gifted children are more susceptible to... but, hey, no matter whether they're just bright or gifted - just send them to the library.

Providing appropriate and quality educational programs for our gifted and talented youth is critical to the future of our communities, state, nation and world

'Some gifted children are more vulnerable that many SEN children ... The DCSF recognises this and advises teachers about it.'

Can you link to this please Dad at large - I haven't read that info.

The DCSF recognises the "vulnerability" and extent of vulnerability of gifted children and advises teachers about it. If you really want I can go through the large volume of info I have and find it for you.

Sats are completely irrelevant to the special needs I am talking about. Children with sn who take Sats are not generally the group accessing pots of money via statements. Their needs are met within the school budget (or actually often not met because there isn't money for the extra manpower and training required.)

So again there is nothing particularly special about gifted children - except their needs could be met without requiring huge sums of money.

I still think you are misunderstanding the legal requirement on an lea to provide a suitable rather than the best education. That is all ANY child is entitled to.