Gifted & talented should be stopped!

[lijaco]

I think this should be stopped it isn't accurate, it isn't fair and parents become self obsessed with it. Learning then becomes pressure for kids from parents to be top. If you didn't you wouldn't have this section. STOP IT!

Wow

i must add again i have had a look through the G&T discussions crickey im amazed i know we all love our children dearly and think that ours are far superior to others childrens but some of the nonsense i ahve read has made me really laff.

how on earth could a 23 month old be described as G&T

or even a 3, 4 5 year old am i missing something??????

think i need some form of education???????

kentmumtj spot on! This is totally crazy and obsessive!

I've not read all of this. Normally stay well away from G&T so as not to upset anyone....me mainly!

I have a 12 yearold who is supposedly G&T. He is NOT but school seem convinced.

Yes he is in top sets for all subjects. He does plays more than one musical instrument and picks up new skills very quickly. And he is good at most sports. Main sport is played to a very high standard.

He is a bright,(very bright maybe),talanted and hardworking lad. We are proud of him just as we are of our other DC.

I make sure his feet stay firmly on the ground, ie. he knows that G&T should really refer to a child prodigy.....He also knows he isn't one! He does however have friends whose parents have allowed them to be taken in by all of thiscrap. I see these children(boys mainly) and their parents regularly at school and social functions. Some of the lads are becoming very arrogant.

One of the main complaints I have about school G&T is that certain school residential trips that were once open to all well behaved pupils are now set aside only for the more able . My 15 & 13 year olds couldn't go on a trip to France or a sports trip abroad because they are not G&T. They are left with PLG type trips or skiing trips to USA @ £1000 plus. What are schools thinking of. What's wrong with skiing in Europe FFS. 12 year old will be able to go on any trips. There are also other school activities open only to G&T, there may be some open to SEN, but there are certainly none set aside only for Jonny & Jane academically average.

The result of this is that my 15 & 13 year olds who last went abroad as 8 & 6 year olds, and are desparate to travel abroad have so far not had the chance. With family/work commitments we have been unable to take many family holidays. There are also many DC from less well off families for whom school trips are the only chance to travel.

Ironically my HV assessed my 2 yr old as extremely advanced...
So they do pop the label on early

avenanap, I disagree about the 10%. My DS is six and above a level 5 at maths so very comfortably above any 10% or 1% threshold but 10% is a good cut off point because

1. If it wasn't there your kids and mine would be in too small a minority for anyone to bother having any policy for or action to help.

1. Because of the way the system is there could be a really, really gifted child whose school performance doesn't clearly indicate he's in the top 0.001%. Putting him in a G&T and pushing him would bring that out.

The goal of the 10% should be as an initial filter to help identify the really talented.

lijaco, trust me, it's no walk in the park. I spend most of my free time learning maths just to keep up with the questions. And I never liked maths!

Dadatlarge I love maths so it is a walk in the park for me always been good at it! It is my personal opinion and I cant believe comments are still being made. I posted ages ago! G &T isnt accurate at school, or fair or equal in opportunity as a lot of posters on here expect so much from the label given. It is all about learning styles and how children learn. Top 10% are not actually gifted or talented. A child excelling at age seven may not excell at age 13. There is so far to go and a lot of parents feel the need to push very hard for more work etc. A child needs to be a child and able to fit into their class with their peers. A lot of damage can be done1

lijaco, I agree about learning styles, I agree about children excelling at different ages, I agree that some parents may get over excited at the label and have high expectations. But if you're arguing that children who are bored witless in class should just tell their parents to chill then I hope you're not the G&T coordinator in my DS's school

If you're arguing that all of the top 10% can't be gifted, then I agree with you for the strict definition of "gifted". But for the purpose of the G&T register the identification is solely to enable provision. Not identifying children because their parents may misunderstand "Gifted" is like not identifying a child's SEN because the parent may think their kid is retarded.

I suppose it's not fair in opportunity. Underperforming children should have their needs catered for especially with extra resources, but over performing children should just get on with it. Every Child Matters (as long as they are not in the top 10%)?

I personally don't think my 6 yr old DS is a genuis. But he performs mental gymnastics with maths that his teachers would find impossible. He has special needs. They are not being met. Would your position be that if the teacher doesn't know enough maths to keep him occupied and happy in the subject (note: I didn't say push him to do his GCSEs) then nothing should be done? Wouldn't the logical thing be for the G&T scheme to have the resources to meet his needs?

But I agree with you that it's about how children learn. If schools could be trusted to provide for the more able then I doubt there'd be a G&T scheme. Unfortunately, even with the G&T provision it is pathetic, and the government's own review has severely criticised how brighter children are provided for. Quite simply, the education system is failing them. Even with G&T.

Perhaps you have some suggestion of what should replace the G&T to keep the more able occupied, happy, proceeding at their own pace and making use of their abilities.

Was is Bernard Shaw who said that his education was interrupted only by his schooling. I'm beginning to see his point.

I don't really think that the school system is a good one. I dont think children are actually bored either because they learn other things apart from i.e. maths. They socialise and play too, which is extremely important. Most children become bored easily even if they can /cannot cope with a subject. All children develop at different rates, mentally, emotionally, physically. Some have great opportunities and a large number don't. The system isnt fair. All members of the class should have equal opportunity. If your child is so gifted you do not need to worry. Learning should be fun for children. The education system is failing most children at the moment not just the so called gifted and talented. My point was a parent can become aware that their child is labelled g & t or have great potential then push them continually to do better. Where has the fun gone from learning. I agree with Bernard Shaw completely. I am more inclined towards education otherwise than at school.

"All members of the class should have equal opportunity."
Except if their "special needs" are at the other end of the scale in which case they can be ignored?

"If your child is so gifted you do not need to worry."
On the contrary, that's when you need to be the most worried because these are the ones the system ignores the most.

lijaco, you aren't a teacher by any chance, are you?

Yes lijaco is a teacher (of some non-academic, artsy subject) so it's a bit worrying when she posts "I don't really think that the school system is a good one" and "The education system is failing most children at the moment".

Despite this, her thesis is that she has a G&T DS who has coped just fine with school ergo all G&T kids should cope fine.

lijaco - I live in a country (France) with what is fundamentally a communist non-selective school system - there is no official selection or streaming until age 15.

I can assure you that I am surrounded by families with very clever children who are suffering in a system that in no way develops their thinking or talents. Depression, anorexia, suicide: all just the result of children who are bored and restricted beyond belief, with hardly anyone who can understand them.

BonsoirAnna, we live in the same type of country except that here they make the right noises so you believe they're doing something for the brighter children.

I didn't mean that as a personal attack on lijaco but I resent the insinuation that we who recognise our children are "gifted" are automatically bad parents. We don't all push them.

Play is all very well, but why do so many teachers lack the appreciation that some gifted children get fun out of doing stuff they are good at? And for them to get fun out of it they need to be doing it at a level that's suited to them.

"Where has the fun gone from learning?"
Exactly!

I think children are different. Some will suffer, some won't. For some boredom will be an incentive to take charge themselves and find themselves work/develop an interest in other aspects of school life, for others it will just seem like a mire that they drown in. I suspect it is easier for children whose G&T lies more on the humanities side: dd has always been able to get some interest out of the classroom situation itself, because she is hoping to be a writer, and of course an awful lesson is as useful for that as a good one. You can rewrite something boring in your head and make it funny. But that must be much harder to apply to maths.

My limited experience of schools suggests that there aren't really enough resources for the other end of the intellectual spectrum either. Children whose paeds say they need 1:1 support don't necessarily get it, if you read the posts in the SN forum. Children who need the input of SALTS or OT or whatever may end up waiting for years of never getting it.

And as for physically disabled children, they fall between chairs altogether: some LEAs refuse to statement them if they do not have learning difficulties, but no statement then means no money for the school to help them access the curriculum.

One reason, I never complained about the lack of extra resources for my G&T dd was that there were no resources for her physical disability either, and that seemed to be so much more of a problem. Being bored in a class just didn't seem compare to not being able to make your way to the classroom, or having to crawl on your hands and knees to get up the stairs.

"For some boredom will be an incentive to take charge themselves"

Cory - children also need to be given the freedom - permittted, even - to take charge of their learning themselves. Staring at the ceiling for 55 minutes with the clear instruction not to disturb the rest of the group while classmates complete an exercise that is supposed to last an hour but that a bright child can finish before the teacher has even handed the test paper out to the whole class does not enable any bored child to "take charge" of his/her own learning.

sorry, I did make myself very clear, Anna

I did not mean that staring at the ceiling for 55 minutes is a good thing

though I can't remember a time when I actually spent those 55 minutes staring at the ceiling without thinking about something interesting/composing something in my head/planning the next bit of learning I was going to do

I grew up in Sweden where there was virtually no streaming, certainly never before secondary school and then only in a couple of subjects.Though in retrospect I think the British system is much better and am glad that my dcs are getting to experience it- yet I do not personally have that feeling of waste when I think of my own schooling

because I always had interesting things to think about

my mind was my own

but I did say that children are different

besides, I do not think British children actually do get to do that many 55 minute exams in primary school. My children did SATS- but that was twice in six years. Can't be compared with being bored stiff in assembly every day. But that's the same for everybody.

Are you sure that most British children at primary school would regularly be expected to sit for 55 minutes and wait without even having access to a piece of paper that they can draw or scribble on? Because I've never heard anything like it.

in fact, we are talking about a 6yo here: apart from the one SATS exam, their school day is still not very sedentary at all, so I can't see that this would ever happen

dadatlarge every child matters! Special needs at any end of the spectrum are not ignored! Every child has the right to an education! Children who are also labelled as special needs can also be gifted and talented! No child should be ignored! But all children should have equal opportunity! Fembear I didnt say that my g &t ds coped just fine! He went to an ordinary school not a private one. Just your usual over subscribed school, in an area where 90% of the children are disadvantaged. He had to cope well no choice. No finance for extra tuition etc. Thats another story really as most g & t posters are from the private ed sector. Cory you are right there is usually limited resources most kids who are special needs dont get their much needed extra help. The learning styles within school are very limited due to the teaching specifically for tests i.e. sats. Things need to change drastically. I still stand by what I say though g & t label it isnt accurate and it isnt fair. Its up to you what you think but digging me personally fembear is childish as I have not attacked anybody personally with any of my comments. I have created a great talking point as this has been top of the list for months and you are still discussing it. Also you are putting down Art as a real g &t as oppossed to academic which is my real point also. I have high academic achievement as well as my art/ music. I think learning should be fun, exciting and interesting. Government put an end to all that.

I agree it's still being discussed. That's what you get when you stir controversy. Coming into G&T and saying G&T is rubbish is like me, a dad, coming to mumsnet and starting a thread saying it's a woman's job to tidy up after her man so she shouldn't be here on MN wasting her time

cory, I don't believe LAs can refuse to statement if there is no learning disability. The definition is very clear - SEN covers difficulty learning or physical disability. I do feel for your DD, that should never be allowed to happen. I'd sue the LA.

However, I don't agree about the extent of boredom you see in the system. It's not just assembly. It's hours and hours every week in the classroom. And not all children can keep themselves occupied in their head. Boys, especially (and some girls), need activity. As you say some do suffer as a result of this.

dadatlarge it is being discussed because I posted due to the fact that I really couldn't believe some of the posts that I have read on here. I was pretty gobsmacked to be honest. G & T isn't rubbish it isn't accurate! It isn't measured correctly you can't measure g &t the way that it is measured at the moment. That is my personal opinion it doesn't mean that I am right. The fact of the matter is that an LEA can refuse a statement I have had personal experience of this. Sueing would be impossible! There is huge boredom within the system because of the way the government introduced sats. It spoilt the teaching methods etc. I have 4 boys and very gifted and talented in their own individual right. I think again personally in my opinion that boys are being failed. They learn completely differently to girls and would benefit from single sex education. Well theres another controversy lol! Boys are very active, physical beings and actually achieve better via tests usually! The system is failing boys and it is now girls that are taking over. I could go on but I won't.

"The goal of the 10% should be as an initial filter to help identify the really talented."

I disagree with this. Not all the top 10% will be gifted but neither will all the gifted be in the top 10%.

I think most schools and especially primarys limit it to the top 10% in attainment. The top 10% in attainment are not always the G&T. I know IQ tests are not an exact science (but neither are SATs) but in a study of pupils who had been tested teachers were asked to identify those who they tought were mentally gifted ( IQ over 136 in this study). They found that teachers only identified 45% of those with high IQs. There have been other studies which indicate that by just using attainment as a criteria only 40% are identified. That's why I believe G&T isn't accurate.

thank you kittybrown. I can't understand why people can't see this!