That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

Greenleave - just by way of reassurance, my DC go to a very highly regarded state comprehensive and they get almost no homework at all.

For example, in the last 10 days or so, Ds1 (year 9) had about 20 mins worth last week - two paragraphs for geography - and none since. DS2 did have something, I think, but it may have been the week before and anyway it wasn't a big deal and only took a couple of minutes - 5 maths questions on ordering fractions from low to high.

So, there is a big difference between the reality and having to work every minute of the day.

"5 maths questions on ordering fractions from low to high."

What!!!!! Is this what you get for YR7 homework!!!???

Wow. DD (French Year 7) is also doing fractions but had about 50 problems for homework this weekend. And another 12 pieces of homework in other subjects this week!

yes, when you get maths homework at all. I don't think there will be any more for at least a month.

So, ordering fraction is YR7 level? I assume it's with different denominators and numerators, but is this the normal level of yr7 work?

Crikey. Five hours of maths and homework for every lesson here.

Very little homework. No wonder private schools do better than state schools. May be state school teachers are just too lazy to do the marking.

var snap. Similar here.

Spoke to the head of language yesterday re dc1 and french. She simply stated that yes they would the best so that he isn't bored. But Y7 wouod always be boring for hin anyway....
At least that matches up the comment from his form tutor re maths.

Very little homework here too.

DG2016 I have to say I am SURE that bit has nothing to do with laziness on the art of the teachers!!

And I'm not convinced there is any relation with results at GCSE. There is a lot of studies around homework and whether this is beneficial or not. It usually isn't shown to be beneficial until later on.

I have to say, work that involves some research, presentation etc... and learning by rote (eg learning vocabulary in a MFL) is necessary. An exercise grading 5 fractions isn't.

Not year 7 work... top ste year 7 work for a student who got 94% in the level 6 sats last May and was working at level 7 in primary school.

The teachers don't do the marking very often (read extremely rarely). They get the students to mark each others work and then they just do a register to collect the scores.

Did you read Chpt 8 in Noble's link, Var? I had a quick skip through- made for interesting reading.

Var... I am dreading future... I feel really sorry for your ds.

In a school like my sons, these children will blend - something which I was looking for for my son.

This, for me, is the single most compelling argument for selective education. Yes I would like to see DD challenged and to learn to work rather than coasting, but most of all I want her to be among a peer group so that she doesn't feel like a geek and a freak.

It is easier to blend in a school were everyone else is like you. Whether a child that is different will be made feel like a geek or a freak will depend on the cohort and the school ethos. If the school makes it unacceptable to treat children with SEN different or calling them names, then the same behaviour should be expected for children at the other end. In a classroom were children regard each other as a valuable person, independently of whether they can barely count with their fingers or read or are actually reading chapter books and doing complicate mental maths, either child would be happy and integrate well despite their differences.

Regarding homework, DS in Y2 gets weekly homework, always marked by the teacher with feedback (state school). My nephew is in Y7, and he also gets homework weekly in all subjects to an appropriate level (state comprehensive school).

var dc1 didn't even get the opportunity to be working at level 7 when he was in Y6. The most he had was a level 6 very easily acheived.

What I can't get my head around is the lack of expectation, expectation for the child to do their best, expectation for excellence (whatever excellence means for that child iyswim).
I was talking to dc1 HT in primary. His pov was that schools here are geared towards low middle children. And that there was nothing for the highly able, as in it wasn't expected, that's not who the system was build for.
I believe this is reflected in the generall attitude of 'well if xx manages to have a B in maths, then that's fine', even if xx could actually have got an A or A* with the right teaching.
That attitude (that you are teaching children to pass their GCSE and that's it) is present everywhere. It was there when I spoke to the head of language, it's there when you try and tell teachers that there is a need for more. Why do you ask when it's clear he will get at least an A in the subject ??.
And then when you talk about attitude, not results, there is the clear expectation that the children, even if bored to death and even if said teacher doesn't manage to gain their trust/respect, should just get on with it, be quiet and work hard (even though they don't need to or rather can't as the work is still very easy). It is expected that they will keep the right attitude to learning and will not, god forbid, disrupt the class....

On the subject of homework- there are two very highly regarded grammar schools near me which set very little indeed. The heads both say that the kids work very hard indeed during the day, so there is no need of much homework until revision for GCSEs starts...............

I'm not worrying about amount of homework, more about what they are doing in secondary school...
Ordering fraction with different denominator and numerator, my ds was doing happily last year... in YR2...

"That attitude (that you are teaching children to pass their GCSE and that's it) is present everywhere"

Well, a school with that attitude will have a serious problem when OFSTED comes calling...........

Elle, I do see your point, but there is a real difference between treating each other as a valuable person - which is essential - and having peers.

To take your example of chapter books, that happens to resonate with one of the moments where I've seen the problem most clearly. DD read Harry Potter 1-3 between Reception and Yr1. She had friends in that class, but she was also desperate to play Harry Potter games in the playground and no one knew what she was on about. She cried when there was finally a Harry Potter party in Yr4, because she'd been waiting so long for one. If she'd had other children at a similar level, she wouldn't have felt so isolated.

Just to clarify again - the school is not chock-a-block with grade 8 in multiple instrument children who happen to be nationally ranked athletes - rather that there are grade 8 multiple instruments alongside boys who are nationally ranked athletes/chess players, and others who have other strengths (keen historians/geographers/ etc). They all blend together because although they have different strengths, the culture of excellence in encouraged, promoted, and lauded. They all are academically clever - that is an understood, but it is also expected that they are very good at something else. I have yet to experience the senior school, but achievement is even more in evidence there.

"She had friends in that class, but she was also desperate to play Harry Potter games in the playground and no one knew what she was on about."

Haven't most year 1s seen at least a couple of the films?

Couldn't you have had a couple of friends round to watch the first one?

Sorry- I know I'm irritatingly problem solving- but I really don't get this "all your fronds have to be at the same academic level as you". Mine aren't!

While I am no fan of homework for homework's sake, there are some things that are more appropriately done at home than in class. Like reading books, repetitive exercises in maths and grammar, researching presentations... Etc

Oh - on the homework front, there is very, very little homework at this school. It is starting to pick up in Year 7, but it is just a bit over half an hour a night. The boys are expected to do their learning in school.

Bet this is a school that has recently received an outstanding from Ofsted.

Maybe in a few years when Ofsted will come back with the new system, then it will change (or they will have changed).
I somehow doubt it will change the general lack of attention to details and the lack of expectation of excellence (for that particular child).

The homework (or lack thereof) is the least of my worries. Its the whole low expectations thing that bothers me. I keep hearing that the school sets high expectations for every student, but I'm yet to see evidence of that. Sufficient would be a better motto, I think.

Similarly, I've been told that the work will get much harder next year every single year since the first one, and I'm still waiting for that one too and beginning to doubt it will ever appear.

If I could ask for just one little thing though, it would be that someone would be intellectually honest with me. Try for a conversation that does not hide behind words like resilience and stop trying to dress up a burger to pretend its fillet steak!