That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

Surely though if schools are acting on the basis it can't be read at home due to some people not being able to afford books, it should be even more of a priority to ensure children get to read the whole thing in school?

These children have been in each other's pockets for 2 1/2 years. They "know" each other already - probably some carnally!

var 😰

Good point, Lurkedforever1. Except see Eric's earlier guess at why its not important in the English teacher's mind that they actually read the book.

Deep textual analysis of extracts of well-known texts has long been the main feature of the French bac de francais (commentaire de texte). I had to do this at school (bilingual system) as well as doing English literature the old style English way with whole texts and long essays.

I know which method taught me to craft an argument and tell a story... French people are awful at story-telling.

I know that is still prohibitive for some, but surely many parents can afford this, and would pay it if told about it and encouraged?

This presumes a lot. I live in a very affluent neighbourhood in the catchment of a school that is so sought after people move to the catchment area and pay a huge premium on house prices. (So in other words most parents do care about education.) The catchment comprehensive asks for parents to contribute to materials for DT and to things like take home copies of books/other learning materials. A significant minority of parents apparently refuse to pay on the grounds that state education should be completely free.

If I recall correctly there is less than 2% FSM at this school and the median house price in catchment is very high but school budget low (i.e. funding per head low compared to national average). Parents of those on FSM are not asked to contribute.

If state education should be completely free, how do those parents justify uniform costs, school lunch etc? It's purely cultural conditioning that makes them think it's outrageous to pay for books but not clothes and food. In other countries it's the reverse.

Can't and won't are two different things. I understand both views - it should be free, but I have to admit to being more sympathetic to the can't group.

There's a lot of things state schools should be. We've covered a few of them on this thread. When things aren't as they should be, what are you going to do, as a parent? I guess its a parent's choice to not pay up and leave their DC without, but it would be a good idea to at least let them know that they need to make that choice.

Here in Paris even affluent families pass on text books etc to other families. It's not as if there were no resale market and I and other parents I know who can afford to do so donate books if the opportunity arises.

Last year the Y6 parents in Ds's class were asked to buy two books that they'd be studying that year. I gifted them to the school (along with the old uniform) at the end of the year when he was leaving. isn't that normal?

I hope it is, var. But it rather undermines the arguments of those who think parents shouldn't have to buy books, ever. Not only are books not expensive, you don't even need to buy them all new.

My high school was in very affluent area. Actually in one of the richest state in US back then.(I don't know now.) I don't think we needed to pay for anything, unless you damaged it or lost it. My sister had private music lesson for free, and I had lots of art classes( Oil painting, silk screen, photography, etc.) for completely free and unlimited use of material. But we(everybody) had to sign for textbooks beginning of the year, and return it in the end, or had to pay for it. There was a real respect for school property, I think.

I agree that, at the very least, school pupils ought to sign for text books and pay a deposit which they would lose if the books were not returned in good condition.

NewLife4Me "A GCSE and ABRSM grade 5 are both a level 2 qualification. This is where the comparison ends"

I was temporarily fascinated by that comparison when DD got an ABRSM G4 certificate with it printed somewhere. That's a GCSE A*-C is equivalent to an (ABRSM or Trinity) G4 or G5 in QCF-world.

I'm still not sure how that works though i.e. does G4 & G5 count as two distinct QCF level 2 qualifications? G6, G7, G8 as three QCF level 3s? Does anyone care?

The no text book thing is a real frustration. And incredibly discrimatory. Because privileged children obviously get them- and generally everyone else doesn't. Yet another thing where ridiculously tight school budgets impact disproportionately on the disadvantaged.

Bobchic - i can see that being a problem in practice. Can you imagine the school trying to impose a fine for a damaged text book and being met with:-

• It was like this when the year started
• You have to expect wear and tear. I know my rights!
• I lost it/ the dog ate it / its gone
• The bullies damaged it
• I am scared to tell my parents
• I will bring it in soon

The teacher, or whoever is in charge of collecting the fines would be cast into hours of unpleasant work trying to get back about £30 worth and probably only managing to recoup about half of it.

BertrandRussell - for the first time I agree with you.

although I am not sure how you define "privileged" - i think you are either drawing the line high and taking a very dim view of the majority of parents, or your definition of privilege is have parents that care for basic needs.

I didn't realise that state secondaries didn't provide textbooks. That is shocking. My kids' private school hands them out at the start of the year and collects them in at the end, just as used to happen when I was at school in the eighties.

Oh, come on, Var- you've agreed with me before!

Profgrammaticus- can I introduce you to the concept of fees? You know, all that money your parents paid for your education, which, I am sure, included an element for text books.

var - my DSSs had that system at their French Catholic school. It seemed to work well - everyone was used to it.

No text books impacts the whole class if they are reading in class time rather than at home. Not much literature is going to be read at that rate.

var as I said it was like this when I was a child and I was then living overseas in a very deprived area.

People only think like this when they see school stuff as unimportant and something you dont have to take care off because it's free anyway.
Hence the fact they don't let the children go back hom with notebooks in primary 'because they will never come back'.
Strangely enough, as soon as there is a threat to have to pay if you damage stuff/lose them etc... then it's not an issue anymore.

I grew up in South Africa, and went to a state school. Like Irvine, we were all given textbooks at the start of the year, and handed them back at the end. I'm not even sure we were forced to pay if we lost them, but school property was respected and the books looked after. This applied not just to textbooks, but also to set texts for literature. Can't understand why you wouldn't do it this way really? The school only needs to refresh the books once every few years when coursework changes or the books become too tatty to use.