That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

noble academics are strongly fighting this because we simply cannot afford to lose students from STEM. We already produce far less maths/physics graduates than we do historians (hence shortages of maths and sciences teachers, but also shortages in many industries).

I would prefer to have a two tier system for A level maths, where the top students are "forced" to take extension papers but the current level of A level stays roughly the same.

I think a top grade in Maths is "easier" at GCSE because is really is a matter of knowing what you need to know. It's different in other subjects- for example, I knew my dd had missed out on her predicted A* for English Lit she she told me about one of the essays she had written and I could see that she had misunderstood the question. She knew her stuff- she just applied it slightly wrongly.

Sorry- that was responding to var's post. History is an interesting one. They do a lot of project work at ds's school, which makes differentiation easy- the teacher gave each child the minimum target grade they were aiming for and the criteria. So the class could be looking at the same topic, but with very different expectations of the finished piece of work.

How are G and T children treated in academies. My DCs school has just been academised.

The marking in Eng Lit can be decidedly flakey.

It will be interesting to see how the new AS pans out this summer.

Though numbers will be vastly reduced as so many schools are not offering the new decoupled AS.

No school system I have looked at has got to grips with consistency issues in the marking of mother-tongue and literature.

What is STEM?

How well will the new gcse maths prepare kids for the new a level?

I have friends whose children got a/a* for gcse and but are now struggling with the first couple of terms with a level. One has been forced on to Use of Maths as reportedly he got a B in the end of autumn term tests, another is considering the same.

I have huge doubts that just making the exams harder will actually improve things, unless there is a fundamental change when they are much younger and I'm not convinced the new primary curriculum does that job.

I really really think that Maths should be split in KS3/KS4 into numeracy skills - into which every effort should be made to get children to a reasonable standard and higher level skills, which should be strongly encouraged, but could be dropped by those who are struggling with numeracy skills in order to focus on those. Two exams - a numeracy exam and a maths exam.

Currently GCSE maths does not differentiate at the top end, you look at a cohort of A* kids and there is a huge range of ability within that band. It will be interesting to see what happens next year.

I'd like to be able to join in talking about other subjects, but with the exception of science I have no clue what happens in them despite having a dd in gcse year. I have noticed with alarm though that to get an a* in the performance part of music you needed 57/60 last year. That's a bit scary!

BadKitten the requires standard for GCSE music is only grade 3 though so it's a fairly low bar and you'd expect good performances from the best musicians. Many students taking GCSE music will already be on the higher grades in their out-of-school instrument lessons.

I agree with you about numeracy/ maths, btw. Here in France all students sit a common maths exam at 14/15. It's a very low bar for children who are even moderately gifted in maths (DD got 100% and she is not IMO especially gifted at maths) but a very high one for many - in many state schools, only a minority get over 50% in the written paper. A lot of these children would be better off working at numeracy - like skills like workong with percentages and proportionality - rather than trigonometry.

There does seem to be a common theme in gifted conversations that gifted = good at maths. My DD while good at maths is far more gifted in other areas.

GCSE music is grade 5 level- not grade 3. Not super high but still not bad. And the composition element is quite challenging.

Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths

I think the issue with maths is that it's an area where really most of it is done at school.
My niece is gifted at swimming but she practices outside school, has all her trainings organised etc... in the evenings/weekends etc... School has nothing to do with it.
Another child I know is gifted in music. Again she is working on that at home, has spent holidays going to some special trainings with other talented musicians etc etc. Nothing to do with school.
You can say that in a lot of different subjects.
Maths, even if you are gifted at it, you still need to be taught. And that is done at school. And if the child is learning by themsleves at home, it then open a lot of other issues that you don't find with music or sport for example (they might be playing another instrument, another sport etc...).

Thanks var

wood you can say the same about most academic subjects, not just maths.

Pupils who are very able in English Lit or Latin or geography are likely to get most of their exposure in school. Maths isn't a special case.

Its very easy to get hold of books - so not English Lit. (Mayeb the deep analysis but not the actual reading of books). If children had to wait for the school to introduce them to literature, well there'd be a lot of badly read adults.

Not geography. Everyone on this thread seems to think that Ds loves maths etc. Actually its geography and history (and we provide him with the things to develop his love of these subjects at home, school is lagging by years).

Maybe Latin - that one is probably fair to give as an example.

But speaking of literature, can anyone tell me why an English teacher wouldn't finish reading a book or play before moving onto the next? It has happened repeatedly to Ds1's class. I don't think they've actually finished a book since the first term of year 7 (he's in year 9 now).

Well there isn't a lot of people who could introduce their dc to latin. I, for one, have forgotten it all since I studied it!

"GCSE music is grade 5 level- not grade 3."

I'm out of my depth, but a quick glance at the first Google result (Aqa GCSE Music) appears to say just 2.6% of the overall marks explicitly depend on having higher than G3.

I've read French research that identifies family and environmental influences as critical for success in language and literature (mother-tongue) but school as the major influence, with genetics, for success in maths.

You can't really compare graded music exams to GCSE, so there.
You hardly need any theory for GCSE, certainly not grade 5 level, more like a few terms at grade 3.
you don't even have to read music for GCSE music either. I know dc who have taken it with no prior knowledge at all.
They are however expected to have lessons either within school or privately.
They don't need to take graded exams to pass GCSE and about the level of grade 1 - 3 will do for the practical element.
I know a lad who gained an A at GCSE after failing grade 1 ABRSM drums.

A GCSE and ABRSM grade 5 are both a level 2 qualification. This is where the comparison ends
HTH

var - I find it extraordinary that a teacher wouldn't finish a book with their class. When you are 11 or 12 you can't really discuss a challenging book properly until you've read it a couple of times...

ABRSM is a bit like the CEFR language qualifications: independent of political interference and permanently benchmarked to a consistent standard over the years.

I do too. The first time was "because they ran out of time" but since then they have never finished a book.

And some of them are actually worth reading: Macbeth is one of the ones that they stopped 2/3rds of the way through.

I can't think of any explanation for it.

I think challenging an able child in English requires a wee bit more than giving them some books .

var scene analysis is a big feature of GCSE English Literature; students provided with a scene(or part thereof) from one of the set texts. They're then asked a question about it. Good marks require line level and word level analysis (rather than a broad overview of the text IYSWIM).

Some teachers have taken this too far and concentrate solely on this.

As I said, the deep analysis is different and the school is needed for that. So, I think we are agreeing, aren't we, Eric (at least about that part)?

Eric, are you saying that your last post is the reason why teachers may not finish books?