What is your school doing with their highest achievers under the new NC?

[amillionusernameslater]

I'm very about the new approach to G&T pupils of deepening not letting them learn new things.

What are others' schools doing with those who are well ahead of year group expectations in maths in particular?

Oh, ok. I didn't see it because I thought I was relatively clear that the only less able people DS responds badly to are those who jump around waving their hands in the air demanding attention. Actually he's not that well disposed to the able ones who do that either.

Also, he finds it difficult to comprehend that a teacher doesn't know that San Francisco is a city, not a state, but chooses not to check her facts when setting homework.

Var123 was just saying that it was a surprise for me when I went into the 'real world' to realise that often adults don't know arithmetic (and many other things) as well as kids. It was destabilising in a way as you expect adults to know more, but then you realise they know other stuff, sometimes more important stuff.

A nice article about how not fitting in is so hard

No real answer on what to do but summarise well the issue.

sorry if i was sharp earlier, Basketofchocolate. I didn't sleep last night so i'm a bit edgy today.

The thing I like about this part of MN (the G&T) part is that people are supportive of each other these days. In the past, certain posters stood sentry ready to challenge the right to be here of anyone who might venture in. I am glad that has changed and i am sorry if I offended you in anyway.

That's a good article, Kevinandme. i wish there was a solution though. Teach the G&T kids kickboxing, maybe? The cool kids may not like them any better, but they'd keep their unkind thoughts to themselves!

I've been lurking for ages on this thread. I don't have much to add except that it only got better for me when I went to a highly selective and academic secondary school. I see the pattern of being different and having no friends repeating itself with dd1 and just worry about history repeating itself.

It's not so much boredom (school is very easy for her but the teachers do their best and it has the merit of being very local and setting little homework, so she has tons of time to do other stuff) but it's just so hard for her socially. It's frustrating as I can see she doesn't help herself but equally she's fine with friends of ours who have kids similar ages. It's just school.

Sorry, have been busy and didn't get back to the thread. To answer about Potential Plus. I've been to a couple of their weekend events and know people who regularly go.

I don't rate the lectures for parents, but DD loves the activities and we have got to know a couple of people through them.

There is also a Facebook page, which you don't have to be a member to sign up to, and which has a map of people, so you can find people in your area.

DD has generally liked both the weekends and meeting other children this way. There are some very, um, forceful parents in PP though, which generally isn't my style, and also a lot of people whose life revolves around their child's giftedness, which isn't really my style. But also some very nice people too.

but what age are the majority of children? I had the impression of primary school - maybe up to 9. Am I mistaken?

At the weekends we went to in Bedford, they ran a separate event for teenagers (with the bonus that parents didn't have to remain on site too). And I think that because that was longer-form, the children got more of a chance to make friends - I would see them sitting together at lunch and so on.

If you are in the south east, these classes might also be good, they go up to Yr10.

Does your LA also have an extension centre which does classes for g&t children. Again, the content isn't necessarily so important as the chance to hang out with similar children. I live in the SW, so only know about the Wiltshire and Somerset ones, but assume that there is similar elsewhere. This is the Somerset one

And here is some detail about last year's teenage events - I think it is 13+

I haven't rtft so apologies if this has already been said. The new curriculum does encourage keeping children together within a year group and managing a spread of abilities by giving more able pupils 'mastery' or 'deepening' activities whilst focussing on bringing those of a lower ability up to speed, however, it is also appropriate to extend the extremely able onto new learning.
Also, I think a lack of resources and ideas is a real issue as a lot of teachers don't actually know what 'deepening' activities actually are and, for maths especially, tend to rely on 'word problems' rather than broadening knowledge through puzzles, manipulation, investigation, real-life examples and cross-curricular links.
So depending on your child's ability they should either be given a range of enriching, broadening activities, or, if exceptional, be extended into further learning.

I think its more the issue that one teachers enriching, broadening knowledge can very easily be a very able childs 'completely obvious'. It completely overlooks the fact children who are very able tend to automatically take a basic concept and apply it in a more complex way to a range of situations. Yes of course I agree they should demonstrate it, but not repetitively as is often the case, after already repeating the basic version at length. And without pulling in concepts above the year groups curriculum, it's quite often impossible to make some things even vaguely enriching.
Again it comes back to the fact some adults just can't comprehend the fact that a child can just grasp things quicker than they, and they tend to be the ones that fail to understand their enriching is a childs obvious.

I remember dd being confused about learning the 2,5 and 10 times tables. She really didn't understand why people would learn them, or even why at that age they didn't already just know or use them. Therefore without using concepts above that level it would be impossible to try and give her actually enriching activities based on them. Ditto a lot of other stuff, it took maturity for her to realise why anyone would even learn any times tables, or want to use a number line or square, or not just 'get' area, or basic algebra etc or not understand something straight off and apply it. I'm lucky her primary were great, and let her learn at her speed, even if practically they couldn't always teach her at it. But that didn't stop her returning from her maths with an older group, seeing what was left on the board or hearing her friends talk and asking me later why anyone would need to do that. God knows what she'd have come out with in class if she'd have been forced to spend 7yrs enriching herself on what was on the board.

I remember the dc1 teacher in Y2 been really lost as to what she was going to do with him after a science lesson.
Basically they were learning that some materials absorb water and others don't (or very slowly). So here come a piece of chalk, some marble, a brick etc. The children poured water on them and were to measure how long it took for the water to be absorbed.
Cue for dc1 to look at the teacher and say
'But that experiment isn't right. The surface of the different material is different so you can't compare the speed of absorption'.....

I agree with Lurked, deepening an idea is good when you are able children who get a bit bored. It doesn't work with G&T children who have immediately applied the knowledge to something much more complex or to another area completely.
There is also, imo, the issue that for some teachers, it would be challenge to give some 'deepening' activities at the level these children need because they might well be struggling with it themselves (eg a child who can do some maths at GCSE level in Y5~Y6)

I know what you are saying, Lurkedforever1. I'm just not sure you are right about the motive.

You are thinking that because they needed the deduction pointed out explicitly to them, they assume that everyone needs the same level of handholding.

However, it could be that they realise that able children can deduce things themselves, and perhaps already have conscientiously noticed the connection , but they don't have anything else to offer the children to do, so its easier to just pretend that the children need help making connections.

When Ds2 was in year 3, the teacher asked the class to put their hands up if they could think of a pair of numbers that would sum to make 100. After various offers of 20+80 etc. Ds2 was asked and said 49.999 and 50.001. Luckily the teacher was nice and was happy to laugh with the rest of the class.

However, this still didn't stop Ds sitting through an introduction to decimals the following year.

There needs to be a better answer for more able children. I knwo its an underfunded area, and many teachers find the work more satisfying the less able a child is, but there has to be an answer. Its too late now for my children (age 11 & 13), but maybe a solution can be found for their children?

That sounds familiar, var.

In yr1, he had a home work to write down number sentence to make up 30. (Other children got 10)

He used about 5 pages to write down number sentences using +,-, X, /,
square numbers, square roots, cube etc.
Teacher's comment was "well done", and nothing changed.

He ended up not want to go to school, because he was told to go on to computer to do maths, which was too easy as well.(He didn't have a choice of what to do.)

I don't disagree that's part or sometimes all of the cause var. I was basing it more on specific examples from Dds primary days, comparing the attitude of the one teacher I didn't like and the y4 and y6 teachers, none of whom were mathematicians. The latter 2 were quite open about the fact dd easily grasped things they had to think about/ practice etc. The former was insistent that as the teacher she was better than any child, and therefore was the benchmark for ability.

However that particular teacher was pretty crap across the board, so perhaps your scenario is the more common.

I only came across a teacher like that once: Ds1's y3 teacher. Every time I spoke to her, we couldn't move on until I'd acknowledged her brilliant mind.

I knew someone else like that previously though. He wasn't very bright but he was brighter than everyone else he'd grown up with. When i knew him he was a computer analyst but I heard later he retrained as a maths teacher.

The difference between the bright - for whom mastery and extension within can be good - and the gifted has been so blurred by the [insert swear word of choice] definition of g&t as the top 10% of the class, and I think a lot of difficulties do come from that idea.

I am so glad that we have pulled DD out of state education; I think the mastery thing would be the final straw if we hadn't. Is it still true in secondary? And, while I am here, is it also true that schools are now not allowed to enter pupils for any GCSEs early (I have been told this by an admissions person in a secondary school that has previously allowed pupils to skip a year but is no longer going to do this).

Not so much not allowed as discouraged by the removal of the option to keep re-testing until you get a good grade. AFAIK children can still re-test (though not as frequently), but schools have to report the first attempt on the league tables.

The argument against letting G&T pupils take the test early is that they might only get a B / level 6 when they could've got an A* / level 9 by waiting.

Yes, mastery is still very much alive and well at secondary, or at least it is at my children's state comprehensive.

I have been watching this thread with interest as my dd although G&T doesn't fit the academic profile, so we have no issues with school for example.
What I find astounding is the lack of support some parents are receiving and how provision between schools differs so much.
I feel sorry for your children, it must be so difficult if they don't receive any support and are just left to linger.
Is G&T still considered as sn, I know at one time it was.
I firmly believe there should be specialist schools for the academic G&T because there is for what would be considered extra curricular subjects like music, dance, drama, and sport.
Anyway, will go back to lurking again, as nothing more to say.

G&T wasn't considered as SN at my dcs school.
Actually I haven't even heard the word G&T ....

I think its only a few schools who stick it in with SEN. I don't know what they call the responsible dept: the outliers? The exceptionals?

Twice exceptional is not that unusual, so it does make sense to combine the two, especially if it meant there was someone on hand who could advise the rest of the teachers on how twice exceptional should not be confused with average or good potential, but lazy.

This is interesting. Its a check list created by the exam board for northern Irish teachers (who more or less have the English curriculum) to identify G&T.

www.nicurriculum.org.uk/docs/inclusion_and_sen/gifted/General_Checklist.pdf

There's other things too:-
www.nicurriculum.org.uk/inclusion_and_SEN/Guidelines/gifted_talented.asp

I have no answers but would like to recommend for the DC in the early years of secondary school "The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian". It is a novel about being the geeky outsider with problems but looks back with humour as well as pathos. The audio book is read by the author. (Some content would be unsuitable for primary age children IMO.)