What is your school doing with their highest achievers under the new NC?

[amillionusernameslater]

I'm very about the new approach to G&T pupils of deepening not letting them learn new things.

What are others' schools doing with those who are well ahead of year group expectations in maths in particular?

They get a high number of A* at GCSE. it all looks very good on paper, and Ofsted love them.
It just feels like a slow, 5 year crawl from the start of year 7 to the GCSE exams. i think the fault lies in the education system, tbh, not the school.

Yes, even in schools that are awful by anyones standards for able provision, I still think it's the education system where the primary fault is.

"not had dd betray me"

I expect there's a curve for it and my DD is closer to the top.

She has a relatively compliant in-class personality and I suspect she set the all-time record for Sitting Quietly stickers in KS1. In recent years we've had quite a few conversations along the lines of "Ack! They [teacher] won't hate you if ... and anyway we'd go nuclear if that happened". Or "OK are you really, really sure about this because if we make a fuss and then you..."

Of course she's a completely different child at home. And yet another amongst her friends.

In part it's because the situation hasn't yet arisen where it's me versus school, she's always known the head and the rest of the staff would agree iyswim. But I think that's probably part of it too pique. Don't get me wrong, dds behavior in school or anywhere else has always been very good and polite, and being disrespectful has never been a problem, but it's fair to say compliance purely for the sake of keeping the peace isn't a quality of hers. The awful supply teacher concluded her second day with telling dd that she didn't have hypermobility, and if she did then it would make her better at gymnastics, and to stop doing silly things with her arms and legs and to keep them straight etc. Dd (age 8 or so) response was to say nothing and then factually repeat it to the ta soon as she got chance, before coming home that night and announcing she wanted me to go in, explain hypermobility, and demand the teacher apologised to her.

var I had to laugh at your eperience of primary school. So similar to mine except that I gave up long ago to try and make them give dc1 some work at appropriate level.

Ive had some interesting discussion with a Y4 teacher telling me that dc1 wasn't that good anyway, the year after when I went to see her at a parent evening about dc2 . She wasn't holding any grudge at all!

Oh and I also had similar exchange with a HT too (except it wasn't about G&T). I sat down with a pen and paper and she started to panic asking me if I was planning to take notes of what she was saying! Well errr yes. That's what you in business meetings don't you?

I also agree it's the system that is at fault. That's why I have stopped fighting a long time ago.

And I'm not going to unless dc1 is strating to get really unhappy about it (which he is atm. I'm just hoping it will calm down after half term when they start to get on with things better)

"The awful supply teacher concluded her second day with telling dd..."

A little knowledge clearly is a dangerous thing. That really is a bit mind-blowing, in that I can't comprehend why someone would not know that a vague scrap of information is not the entire truth and perhaps it would be a bad idea to dig it out and throw it at a 8 year-old.

You all seem to have such a desperately poor regard for teachers. How depressing.

Believe it or not she argued the toss with me about it next day, because she believed the myth hypermobility just means flexible and is therefore an advantage. In fairness I've heard hcps who believe similar tosh. I was more annoyed that she was coming from the angle she thought dd was fibbing and being silly forcing her joints the wrong way, as though it's a likely condition to fake to get out of doing some gymnastics moves well.
I wasn't the only one to complain, dd was one of a good few given grief. She was gone by the end of the day.

IguanaTail - no, that's not true and its a lazy thing to say. It is not all teachers, nor even all schools, but it is yes to some teachers and yes to some (many) schools.

In my case, it is also a big yes to an education system that sets a maximum pace and allows no provision for those who find it difficult to learn so slowly.

Lurkedforever1 - tell us about hypermobility. TBH I know very little about it, except its another word for double jointed (which is a good thing) and some people find it painful (but I don't know if that's the majority or a small minority).

I also knew nothing about dysgraphia, right up until the moment that DS1 was diagnosed with it. But now, i know a fair bit.

IguanaTail , I disagree.

I know there are many great teachers, especially on MN who gives us helpful advice all the time.

In my case, I'm only referring to some teacher who wasn't so great from a parent's perspectives.

It does mean basically double jointed. Some people have it in just one or two joints, others have it in loads. Tbh although dd has the full scale of joints, both of us have it in its mildest form, so I'm not best placed to explain the bigger problems some people have.
For us the issue lies simply with the fact that while the actual joints may bend both ways, the ligaments etc can be damaged through over stretching. And the pain and long term problems like arthritis is usually from damage to the supporting ligaments, strains etc. What works for us, and others with just straight forward double joints, is having a good build up of muscle around the joint. Not just to support it, but because it's an easy way to feel when we're over stretching.
The problem with any hypermobile person doing anything like gym, ballet etc and weight bearing is that the joint can go either way, and so by the time you build up the muscle to prevent it, it's the same as a normal jointed person building the muscle to stretch, so no head start iyswim. Eg not that you would, but at 2/3 dd could have comfortably danced in points, because her ankles could go everywhere. But, that also meant they could go everywhere once en pointe. Therefore building up muscle to stop her ankles going everywhere was the same sort of time scale as anyone conditioning themselves to get en pointe. Or eg getting my ankles on the back of my neck is something that has never been uncomfortable, but unless I condition myself to do it, the damage is the same as painfully forcing the average person into that position. It's only my leg muscles that reminds me that further than mid head is harmful for me personally.
The problem dd and I have is that we can't lock joints straight, so eg our knees reach the far point once past vertical. As I said, we have it in its uncomplicated form, so while we have enough muscle we're both good at sports in general, we're both a bit rubbish at anything requiring us to bear weight on our arms with the joints perfectly straight. So we can both lift our own weight comfortably, and do very well doing pull ups off a bar, but something like a handstand we're useless at. Arms of course don't get the same practice as legs do at weight bearing, so our leg joints are better than arms. And to an extent having to maintain muscle, as well as being inclined towards certain sports, means that from an early age dd has had muscles disposed to certain movements, so she lost some of the normal childish flexibility early on. So eg her leg muscles were painful doing the splits from toddler age, however she had enough leg strength to maintain a jockey/ skiing position for ages.
The only other problem we have is being more likely to strain things, eg both of us can go over on our ankles very easily so our legs are straight and our soles are perpendicular to the floor. And having to teach dd early on that whilst stuff might not hurt, it's damaging in the long term.
Ours is luckily easily controlled with muscle build up from exercise for the most part, and it's only the odd finger joint dd can pop out. But I do know some people can't control it just through gaining supporting muscle, and can have such as hip joints that pop out often, and are at a major disadvantage even in activities like primary Pe. And that in some cases it is more than just joints that are hypermobile, so internal systems are effected. However apart from knowing we haven't got that aspect, I don't know much about how more severe cases impact peoples daily lives.

Would you mind explaining about dysgraphia please? My knowledge is very basic, and the only person I know with it is low ability in general, so I don't know how much of their issues are dysgraphia and which are just from general ability.

Iguana actually my BIG issue us with a system that us geared fir the average child/middle learner and has nothing to propose to the higher achiever a, the ones that learn too fast compare to the others.
This has a big impact on children like my dc.

I would also argue that there is a lot if talk about working at the level if the child, implying that teachers will give these children 'special work' like they do for the lower end ability.
Except that
1- they cant. They have too much work already that setting work that way above the class they are teaching is not something I would've expect them to do.
2- even if they are supposed to be stretched sideways, it still more work for the teacher that they can cope with.
3- we are talking about children with high abilities, who often self teach in particular subjects. Dc1 is keen in chemistry. The sheet he put together (his choice) about radioactive particles was not understandable to his Y6 teacher. Keeping these children interested and curious and engaged IS hard. Sometimes the easy solution for said teacher, ESP in primary, is to find a way out (eg the list above) because what do you say to a child who is talking about something you know nothing about??

I am not sure I'll be able to describe dysgraphia as well as you've just described hypermobility but here goes:-

Dysgraphia is a specific learning difficulty. It is a neurological disorder in the dyslexia family. Dyslexia relates to reading, dysgraphia to writing and dyscalculia to number work (apparently the numbers just float about in front of your eyes). Dyspraxia is about gross and / or fine motor skills. There are other disorders within the dyslexia family, but these are the main ones.

There are about half a dozen variants of dysgraphia. The combinations are made up:-
Can't write legibly at all
Can't write legibily, except when copying out
Can't spell.

DS has the type where he can't write legibly under any circumstances, but his spelling ability is unaffected (actually his spelling has better than most adults since he was about 8).

The symptoms of dysgraphia are:
unable to write on the line
unable to form certain letters to look ok no matter how slowly he does it or how often he practices, even by joining the dots. (S, C and G are the worst).
odd pencil grip - more like he's holding the pencil in his claw than in his hand
slow writing
wrist pain when writing - even after just 10 lines
unable to think and write simultaneously

The last symptom (thinking and writing simultaneously) is the killer when it comes to school work. As I am writing this, i am think what my next sentence will be, and I am holding the structure in my head. DS can't.

DS is very clear thinking , he's insightful and he has an exceptional general knowledge, which should add up to some very exceptional answers in reading comprehension, essays, geography, history etc. Except he can only do this verbally. As soon as he writes down his answer, he boils it down to as few words as possible, cancelling out everything not directly related to the question. He'll make blank statements and omit the justification, even though he can easily justify the statement verbally.

From the reader's point of view, you are almost glad he does this because reading something Ds has written is very hard work. Even my birthday card requires some effort (and I can make an educated guess what it will say before I even open it).

Special pens and writing slopes both help but do not solve the issue. Mainly they reduce the wrist pain so DS is willing to carry on a bit longer. The main solution is to touch type. The school are very encouraging of this. They want DS to type his work where possible. I've given him a keyboard for his ipad and a PC at home. His typing speed is still slow, but already faster than his writing speed. Moreover, he can type and think at the same time so the quality of his work is better.

However, DS - who has just turned 13 -is exceptionally embarrassed about his disability. He's at pains to hide it from his peers. Sometimes he cries about it at home. The bottom line is he'd rather understand everythign in class, find it all exceptionally easy, but turn in written work that is nothing special at all.

He's in the top set across the board. I had his IQ measured as part fo the dysgraphia diagnosis, and its off the scale in places. However, I don't know how long DS can survive on turning in the sort of work he does before he slides to the bottom of the top set and then down a set (which will devastate him).

He needs to overcome his fear of being seen to be different and start typing in class. He understands the theory behind that statement but he can't bring himself to actually do it.

That was a great explanation thankyou. I'm guessing it's hard to get a diagnosis for anyway, but combined with the fact natural ability would have allowed it to be disguised to a reasonable extent, it must have been a real struggle to get a diagnosis for your boys. And I'll take a wild stab in the dark and guess because of that, being different and typing wasn't a habit from early education, it's a factor in your older ds feeling awkward about it now?
The general assumption dd should be equal across the board at picking up physical skills is far less complicated or mentally far reaching. And it doesn't take any leap of the imagination to see why it's incredibly hard for someone like your ds to cope with. Hopefully he will be able to overcome his fear in time.

Both my sons are diagnosed with dysgraphia now, but Ds1 definitely has a more severe case. Both are twice exceptional, so the disability masks the ability and the ability masks the disability. DS1 has developed a really scary memory because he can't write things down. I first noticed it when he memorised the Eastleigh by-election results in 2013 when he was 10. He didn't even know who the parties were until then, or what they stood for, but he noticed the news headlines and started asking questions. Even now, he can remember all the candidates names, their parties and how many votes they each got. (We don't live in Hampshire btw and we don't know anyone who is in politics).

Ds1 was diagnosed when in year 6. It was quite easy to get the diagnosis when it came to it, but only because, by coincedence, I happened to have him in front of the right person to diagnose it.

Since this thread has had a few teacher battle stories, here's another one. DS1's year 6 teacher was a first class bully. Her view was that Ds1 was simply being lazy writing so badly and that with a bit of uncompromising pressure from her, he'd drop the bad hand writing. The way she did it was to make his life a misery.

I didn't like how she was bullying him (bullying was the word). She wasn't just restricting herself to being critical of his handwriting, it all went much deeper.

Anyway, however, I felt about the rest of her behaviour - which was beyond the pale - she had a point that his writing was bad. So, i took him to a handwriting expert for some tutoring and she spotted the dysgraphia immediately.

Dyslexia runs in families, so i had Ds2 tested as well, and he was consequently diagnosed too.

Then I went back to the primary school with DS1's diagnostic report in my hand. The Y6 teacher, who was also the SENCO, said she didn't believe in dysgraphia (or dyslexia - but ASD does it exist apparently). However, she got the point that I was watching carefully and I really was ready to both withdraw DS from school and devote myself to dragging the teacher through every complaint system I could possibly find if she didn't let up on DS1. So, she let up on him.

The thing with DS1 is he's quiet, considerate, emotionally mature, hard working and generally very well-behaved. I almost find it scary how desperate he is to conform. So, I really resent how this teacher treated him and, at the same time, i just can't understand it. She's retired now but she's left her mark on Ds1.

That's awful. It sounds more like something from my school days than recent years.
One of my teen friends had a younger sister who was incredibly able, but also dyslexic, and she went through similar. The school were insistent for years that the parents should accept she wasn't as bright as her brother, and needed to try harder. You'd think things would have changed by now.

I think in those extremes it's jealousy/ spite. Dd does a sport, and while she has natural ability, a lot of it was the fact she had far more opportunity and practice than the majority. I've witnessed with her, or more so with other kids that have had the same chances, the odd adult who's done it on a hobby level for a few years automatically assume they are better than any child, and get really arsey when they realise they aren't, and try and put the childs achievement down. Nothing more than an adult behaving like a petulant 4yr old. Much worse when it's a teacher though, and there aren't other people immediately on hand to jump to the childs defence.

I think things have changed. It was just that teacher who disapproved on SEN.

Presumably, she only took the SENCo job because it was more money or something (although doesn't excuse the person who gave it to her).

I guess after years of chasing autistic children down the corridor, she couldn't avoid accepting that ASD is real. However, when it came to dyslexia, she could retreat into thinking the child was either thick or lazy or both.

I think it was her mentally beating up on DS (even down to marking his maths wrong when it was text book right, and scribbling fail on his SATS papers when he'd got over 90%) that has made DS so desperate not to let anyone know about his disability.

I didn't phrase that right, I meant more that I thought it had changed enough that no teacher would openly dare to display that sort of attitude anymore. What a truly vile person.

The issue I had was with the scoffing tone that people on this thread had, which has now gone.

Yes there are poor teachers, I agree. Even great teachers can improve. But I feel it is very unpleasant to post in a mocking way, talking of "arming" yourself to do battle, having suggestions of comebacks and recounting tales when teachers were successfully "put in their place". This is not a support forum for teachers, but I find it incredibly depressing that this is what has appeared here, in some posts.

Like any walk of life though, discussing the failings of some teachers, or the education system itself, is no reflection on the good, let alone excellent teachers and schools that do exist. And parents of able children do need an outlet like anyone else. But unless you're into coming across boastful in real life, most of us are limited as to who we can express any problems to. Dropping in your frustration that your dc is bored out of their brains doing eg column addition, because they could do it years ago, isn't going to be received well by a bunch of parents in the playground busy discussing their childs struggle to grasp a number line.
Apart from a few of dds close friends parents, who have a vague idea where she is, all any parents from her primary are likely to know is the usual stuff passed on by kids, i.e mini lurk is best at maths. And therefore mentioning any problem would need to be preceded by an explanation of her ability. Which tbh isn't something I go round talking about. In this section of the forum, because we're all in similar positions it's easy to understand each other's frustration, it's an easy outlet for problems without everyone thinking you're boasting or lying.

To my defence, I have posted how my ds's yr2 teacher was a great teacher.
I didn't write in details, but she didn't dismiss me being deluded pushy parents who thinks my ds was a genius.

Sometimes, I think parents feel that we have to arm ourselves to be heard by teachers and school in general, and I think it's wrong.

School and parents have to work together for children. Most of MN mums are very interested in their dc's education thus results in complains.
But in reality, I think a lot of parents of high ability children experience some sort of disappointment from school or teacher. I don't think anybody was " mocking " , sometimes that's what we feel. And what is wrong to share their bad experience online, which you might never be able to express in real life?

The thing is, when you encouter a wall times after, you do end up arming yourself because a meeting. In thre same way a parent with a child with SN will do when going to ask for support at the school (I know dc2 has some SN...). Otherwise, nothing ever happens.
I do the same thing when I see my GP btw. Going to see him with all the fcats presented in a clear way helps a lot getting the help you need com[are to rumbling and being unclear.

The other thing that you will see happening is people making a joke/scoffing at what is a very hard place to be for our dcs because if we don't we would get either really low or really angry.

I wrote out a reply but lurkedforever1 has said it more eloquently.

At least my posts on this thread were not written for the benefit of teachers who may choose to read them, I was writing yesterday with the intention of supporting a parent who has an upcoming meeting with the school. Expectation setting and knowing that you aren't the only person who has ever been made to feel a bad parent when all you've asked is that the school teach your child sometimes does help. Believe it or not, those encounters are emotionally bruising for parents too and leave you feeling quite alone (and often no further forward in helping your child overcome their problem).

To be honest, I am surprised, but pleased, that a teacher would read the thread since its in G&T. Are you interested in the issues G&T children face generally?