Just want to vent, having a bad day

[Blipbip]

5yo DS is the most argumentative child in the world! sometimes this is funny, like the time he argued that sausages have 4 corners, today it is not so funny.

Is it a thing that high IQ boys have enough confidence to fill half the universe? As far as he is concerned he knows everything from the temperature that I should have the hob at to boil water to the direction we need to drive in to get to Timbuktu.

He has spent the afternoon arguing that he cannot possibly walk another step home from school because the person who is controlling him (!) is pressing the wrong button. That we cannot have the aircon on in the car because it hums wrong. He has tried to take the coffee machine apart and argued with his Dbro over the shape of the table (hexagon v octagon) his Dbro is 15 and sadly lost the argument.

I have given in and let him veg in front of TV as I just cannot cope with one single more question. Argh

From what you habe said he is coming avross as a bit precocious. Personally i hate labelling children things like alpha, as it implies a superiority over their peers - he is 5! I have a 6 year old who is bright and full of energy - he would climb the walls and drive me crazy at times, but we manage it with loads of competitive sports ( he is in 2 sports teams) and generally being active with things like tennis, biking and scootering every day. Maybe you need to tire him out a bit more and take the focus off you a bit. It does sound a bit like he is being a bit overindulged but isn't going to do him any favours socially.

I wasn't suggesting he was a bully at all.

My comment was made on the understanding that you feel your DS is a 'little alfa male' based on the argey bargey that had gone on at school. As a previous poster has said, he sounds precocious and you seem to be indulging that. What seems cute at 5 years old isn't cute at 10. You need to teach him when it is appropriate/inappropriate to question things.

I have a friend who has taught her son that anyone, including teachers, needs to earn his respect and he should question everything he is unsure of. This has lead to him interrupting us when we are having a conversation which drives me mad. All because he hasn't been taught that sometimes he isn't the centre of attention and needs to keep his thoughts to himself

You might want to separate out his gifted ness from everything else. Not everything in his life is a charming and lovable consequence of his high IQ and alpha maleness.

He needs boundaries, discipline and clear consequences. Just like any ther child in Reception.

It sounds like you are so in awe of his IQ that you are allowing bad behavior, demanding behavior, argy bargy and argumentativeness to go unchecked.

Greythorne has summed it up perfectly.

It's about boundaries - whatever traits your son has.

Personally I am that you could label your DS as an "alpha" male at 5 .... But say you would never want to pathologise your son with a label.

Children with ASD have highs and lows all of their own - with many talents and creativity that most of us could only ever aspire to.
So on that level you have something to learn.

Re the IQ - you haven't said where that came from...

It's worth noting that many of us who do have "G&T" children prefer and use the term "high learning potential".

In all my years as a mental health nurse -working with children- I have never heard a child's behaviour being attributed to being "alpha".

Lacking boundaries and limits yes.

As far as I am aware it takes a barrage of psychological tests and interviews before a diagnosis of autism can be made yet you seem to be happy to make that call based on a few posts on an internet forum by an exasperated parent.
I'm surprised Touretts wasn't suggested since I mentioned he has a few ticks!
Up intil friday I had never considered his alpha character (thanks for sorting out alfa from alpha, my dyslexic brain struggles with that sort of thing, that and grammer) that was the teachers explanation for his settling in with a few other strong characters on his class.
He has a high iq, I was asked why I posted here, so I mentioned it I'm not going to show a copy of the cert.
This thread has been helpful in terms of ideas to cope and derect his energy but it is starting to get a bit repetative.

Arguing that he won't take another step is nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with parenting. He doesn't get to decide if he is walking home or not, you do. You seem to refer to the constant questioning which may or may not be due to his IQ but refusing to walk, arguing about whether he is allowed to take the coffee machine apart is just naughty behaviour it is wrong to argue with your parent no matter how clever they think you are.

I do hope you take on board Copythorne's post about the need for boundaries.

From what his teacher has said, he isn't behaving in this manner at school, he knows it isn't appropriate to argue constantly with his peers or his teacher., or take apart expensive electrical equipment.
He accepts the classroom rules. You and your Dh need to make him accept similar rules at home. you must also realise it's ok to say to a child "I am busy at the moment and I need to concentrate, please be quiet go and
-insert activity-"

I can't remember the number of times I've used that phrase with both DDs.

And just to add, I do understand why you want your do to have arguments/disagreements with you. I had a similar childhood to you, where I would never in a million years say what I actually felt or give my opinion. My father's word was law. It was extremely frustrating and led me to feel pretty worthless. I certainly didn't want this for my DDs, i wanted them to be comfortable in saying what they wanted. but boundaries are also very important, they have to learn this or they may well become extremely annoying, argumentative adults.

I asked if an assessment has ever been suggested by people who know your ds. That's not the same thing as making a pop diagnosis.

I recall you posting before with similar concerns. It seems to me, then and now, that you want to attribute any and all behavioural oddities to his intelligence, which you clarify runs in the family.

Why don't you just tell us what you want to hear since you are not willing to give any allowance to any other viewpoint anyway?

Let me offer you this - as it seems to be what you want - your ds sounds like he takes after you.

If your health visitor gave you a vibe I would be looking to consider an assessment.

Your sons high Iq is not the issue here, neither is the Alpha comment which is a complete red herring btw.

Please do not attach weight to this throw away label the teacher used. At best it is inappropriate.

I can't believe the backlash you have encountered just for having a little rant! If it helps my DS 2 (8) is exactly the same as the son you describe. He also argues black is blue, is bright and a constant negotiator and has been from day one. Why people are suggesting autism based on what you have said, I have no idea. I definitely have no concerns about DS2 having autism, I know he doesn't.

DS1 however, who is very compliant and hates getting told off, does have some 'tics' which have lessened considerably over time and I did worry about him for a while. At one point, I asked the doctor about it and their view was that if it didn't affect his every day life, to just ignore it and he will probably grow out it.

If the school have no concerns, I wouldn't worry. He sounds like a confident little boy that is finding his place. He will no doubt drive you mad at times but if he is like my DS2, he will also be the source of much laughter!

Re the suggestions of possible aspergers

There are worse labels to give someone...... It can be very helpful and allow greater self-awareness and strategies for being happy in a complex world.

I'd be more concerned about my teacher diagnosing behaviour as asserting my child's alpha-ness. That sounds like something I wouldn't want to encourage - though it's not clear exactly what the teacher meant.

FWIW girls on the ASD spectrum are much more likely to go undiagnosed than boys whether or not they are very clever.

The fact of OP's DC being male should not make it more acceptable or inevitable that he will be more demanding or less co-operative than a clever female. He's little OP: you can help to make things more equal by not letting him behave in difficult ways that you think are typically male. It's known that boys take up more of teachers' time than girls. If we treated little boys and girls more equally we'd all benefit. It's not inevitable that males should be dominating. You don't have to let this happen. I'm glad you've taken note of the suggestions as to how to deal with his excessive arguing.

My DS used to be a bit like your DS. He was a very clever little boy too - not that I had his IQ measured. He has grown out of constantly arguing - now he's a teenager he tends to be more interested in the unjustness of politics, school rules etc. He has found a hobby that allows for self-expression.

I, for one, am not expecting you to produce an IQ certificate blip but I am genuinely interested in how you got him tested. Are you in UK? Was it a "special centre" or something?

kgov1 thanks, I wondered also why I got such a backlash. I think I made a number of mistakes in the op - I assumed that this behaviour is fairly common and wondered if DS's confidence had anything to do with his high IQ (or high learning potential, I did see that thread but personally don't really give a toss what its called). Maybe that came across as a stealth boast?
I have robustly defended my parenting I suppose that comes across as argumentative however I have admitted that I have made some errors and taken on board a lot of the suggestions.

I strongly deny autism or asperger's not out of ignorance but quite the opposite - there have been vibes and suggestions about it so I have done a lot of reading and research. DS is quirky and probably does have some spectrum traits however his NT traits far outweigh his AS traits. He is simply a very high energy (physically and mentally) little boy with a bit of asynchronous development thrown in.

I agree that the alpha thing is a red herring but there is no getting away from the fact that he is a strong character and for that reason takes quite firm parenting, this I pull off 90% of the time. Then I am exhausted and he ramps up the arguments.

Rogue you have a point about the maleness of my op. I have no idea if I would treat him any differently if he was a girl. I only have boys - two of my own and two steps - I will spend a bit of time thinking about it. I certainly have to worry about 5yo DS a lot more than I have to with any of the others and I probably have to parent him a lot more also.

Var123 your last comment made me smile, he is far more like his dad but when we are exasperated with him DH and I always blame each other for DS's character . As for only listening to what I want to hear, this thread has been hard work, its a bit shit having a load of strangers on the internet telling you that you must be a crap parent. I have actually taken a lot on board. I just haven't found your comments particularly helpful.

And for the record OP - if a child is offered ANY assessment it is to see what support they can be offered for whatever need is identified.

It is NOT about labelling.

I genuinely hope you're DC does not have an unidentified need because from what you have said on this thread - and your other- there is enough evidence to suggest an assessment would be helpful.

If you are that sure your DC is purely "alpha" ( an entirely inappropriate label for a DC ) then you have nothing to fear.

I still don't understand why you can't just tell him to be quiet? Am I missing something?

I also think that the main issue here is a very demanding child who is quite a good mini-psychologist and knows how to press adults' buttons. (There is no shame in this. It's an accurate description of my oldest aged 5).

The more you reward inappropriate behaviour with attention, the more the inappropriate behaviour is likely to occur!

I've just read your previous thread and am intrigued as to how a child who "has always been a slow/reluctant communicator" is suddenly the most argumentative, with enough confidence to fill the universe?

I've read both of your threads now and it does look like you're burying your head in the sand a bit when it comes to people offering support. If it were me I would let school do whatever they feel is necessary, even if it was just to put your mind at rest and prove you were right about him I feel like you would enjoy saying 'ha, I told you so'

Teeth, you have a point and funnily enough his new teacher raised this with me after reading the report from his old school as in her opinion he has no communication difficulties but his report talks about a little boy who doesn't reapond to questions or actively participate in class discussions. He has suddenly got confidence with his speech and bounded forward so fast its hard to keep up to the point where he is now always the first with his hand in the air in class and expressing himself very clearly at home.
He was assessed for an IEP in his old school but they didnt have time to implement it. The new school are doing well with him and he loves it there.
I was reluctant to have him assessed but nothing untoward came up only the g&t side of things. There is no need for further assessment.

Mistigri, I don't reward his bad behaviour I just don't use the words shut up or be quiet. Thia thread has given me some useful alternative ways of dealing with it.
DS in not a rude child, I absolutely agree that manners are important in children. But he is very full of himself and impetuous and he needs to learn some control. He is getting there but has a way to go yet.

I think the problem might be that you kind of do reward 'bad behaviour' ie being argumentative by engaging with it. IYSWIM. He no doubt enjoys explaining that the can't possibly walk one more step etc.

It doesn't appear blip that you're willing to answer the IQ question, which is fair enough, your prerogative etc.

But I would suggest you might want to explore further the possibility of having your DS assessed. If not now, then in the future when he's a tad older. Just been reading about IQ's (my interest has been piqued, alongside we also had DS assessed at the school's suggestion) and what struck me was that a 4yr old girl was assessed by MENSA as having an IQ of 159 which is one point below Einstein and Hawking. As your son has an IQ of 150 this is indeed, obviously, exceptionally high and support may be needed further on. Food for thought anyway.

*unwilling

Ds has an IQ of over 150 and was assessed at 7 as being around 7 years ahead of his peers across the board. He is now 12, at a highly selective school, and still pretty effortlessly top of many subjects.

He was assessed because everyone had concerns about his relationships with his peers. He had them, but if I am honest, they were not good. He was always left out of party invites etc. They clearly thought he was odd.

The EP who assessed him said he met none of the diagnostic criteria for autism but, typically of the highly gifted child, he had no understanding of the motivations of his peers or they of him. He could not form great relationships with his school mates because he simply could not understand them.

One of the key issues for ds has been learning to adapt to those around him. He may have been born clever but that does not obviate the need for him to be respectful of others or to speak over the top of them. He has been lectured since before he started school that he must let others have their say and learn when to shut up - it is an important life skill. I believe that this is why, at out last parents' evening, most of the teachers positively glowed when they talked about him and said he was a pleasure to have in their class.