Any tips to help a geeky 12yo girl learn social skills?

[AChickenCalledKorma]

DD1 is in year 8, absolutely flying academically and really struggling socially. "No-one" wants to talk about things she's interested in. The list of things she's not interested in includes boys, fashion, music etc. The list of things she is interested in is harder to define, but would possibly include rock climbing, whatever book she's reading at the moment and whatever interesting scientific fact she's just come across.

She says she struggles in a noisy group when the conversation is bouncing around between different subjects.

When she came home today she was buzzing because she got a GCSE A* equivalent mark in her science test (and had told everyone at school, which might not exactly have helped her social standing ). But later on she came home grumpy from her youth group, which was a Christmas party where she got a rubbish secret santa present. This is a typical range of emotions for a day in her life!

She reminds me a lot of DH, who hates parties, doesn't do small talk, is a typical engineer, with mildly autistic traits that have never been given any kind of diagnosis. I feel there are probably parents on this board with similar children and would love any tips about coping strategies for geeky teenagers, because it's hard to see her sad when she's doing so well at so many things!

It's a really fine line between spectrum and just being different at this age. My DD is only 8, but I can really empathise with this from my own experience. I didn't ever really fit in properly at school but suddenly came into my own when I was at uni, when I was surrounded by people like me.

So I'd suggest you probably need to do two things. One is have some chats with her about basic social skills (just out of interest, how were her friendships in Reception. Things like, you do need sometimes to talk about things you are not that interested in. Someone else will hopefully be able to give you more pointers than I can, there must be books.

The second is to find her some like minded souls. Roughly whereabouts are you - as sadly this may be easier in London and the SE than elsewhere. But get her going to clubs that match her interests, and any young scientists events you can lay your hands on. Local unis may do outreach stuff too if she is that good, so she can meet her equivalents from other schools.

You're ahead of us too, but Y7 DD is rubbish at small-talk, reads quite a lot, loathes One Direction and is a quite good climber (AFAIK there are no others in the school to compare notes with etc.)

She did find herself a little group of clever quiet girls at the secondary and when you get them in a room it can take about 10 minutes before they relax and talk to each other a bit. Just a bit. Still in a year or two when there is more shared experience they'll probably get that down to 9 minutes.

Over the years we've put some effort into speeding up the glacial social pace of this type e.g. have taken several to have a go at a climbing wall (interestingly introverts have been a much better bet for conquering their fears than extroverts) and have hosted quite a few little clever quiet girly events and sleep-overs: it seems to help.

This can be a real problem and not one that most schools will be bothered about unfortunately -as long as their marks don't slip they don't think they need any support when social issues can be really upsetting for them and you

They either have a choice of growing a very thick skin and 'ignoring the haters' as my daughter puts it, or trying to find someone who is 'their own kind of crazy' -you have to love 13 year olds!

Dd has got very into music in the last year, pop punk and 90s rock, which has actually opened up a whole new friendship group in the music department with people that she wasn't in lessons with so had no opportunity to meet previously

Hmm.

I don't think telling everyone at school you got a better mark than they did goes down well whether that's an A* or a C, to be honest!

Obviously she shouldn't change herself to fit in, but normal give and take requires showing interest in other people's subjects as well as talking about your own. Who knows, she might find she does like music if she lets the others introduce her to some? And I bet she'll find some secret readers in there somewhere too. My ds is quite capable socially, but he doesn't expect to find soul mates at school - he finds them at out of school activities. He just has people he gets on with at school for a chat and a bit of banter.

She sounds a lot like my Dd who has a diagnosis of Aspergers ( we like to say 'she's lightly touched with aspergers' ), my dd is a bit younger, will be starting year 7 in September, she has a few friends that are mainly boys and one girl who is also on the spectrum. She hates anything girly, loves reading, maths, pokemon and minecraft. She also likes to tell everyone how well she has done in tests and in school reports which probably annoys them. She's top of the class and working at GCSE C level ( slightly above for English ), she has her school disco tonight and will probably spend most of the time with her geeky friend or on her own, she will be grumpy as hell when she gets home so will be going straight to bed .

She sounds pretty normal for 12 - they are still learning what is acceptable and what isn't, ready for the adult world. My dd sounds similar - she has enjoyed the book club and drama clubs at school - she is better for having things to do at lunch time so there is less time for small talk - does your dd keep busy at school? drama can help even if she doesn't want to perform as it can help develop empathy and also how to talk to different people? Our drama club is mostly games with a very relaxed show at the end of the year so no great pressure to be at the front being watched.

Do you think your DD could have AS - especially as her dad has "mildly autistic traits" - my cousin's daughter sounds just like your girl (in Yr10) and struggles to fit in on any level (she's at an all girls school) though she isn't that academically gifted. She gets very upset as she says the other girls think she's weird and never gets invited out or on sleep overs etc. Not sure what help a diagnosis would be though. Are there any girls who should could connect with - have you spoken with the pastoral care teacher at school.
Am sure there will be more helpful suggestions from others

I do a lot of asking Ds1 (same age as your DD) how he thinks someone else could've done something better. He just gets angry and/ or starts crying if I point out his own faults. So, I make things he sees others get wrong (and have unfortunate consequences) and he seems to learn a little from that.

e.g. there is a boy in his form who is equally able, maybe more able than DS1 but who has a real arrogance about the way he conducts himself and a tendency to irritate people. Ds1 has learned loads from him!

I know this is anathema to a lot of people, but I think if you have a 'quirky' child, making sure that they look the same as other children can genuinely help them. This doesn't mean that they can't have their own style, but make sure that it's within normal boundaries. For example, if your dd likes a casual look, make sure that she's wearing fashionably cut jeans and converses, and a t-shirt that reflects her interests without looking... well, odd.

I do guide one of my children in this way.... her taste in clothes is execrable (her current favourite sweatshirt is covered in pictures of pizzas and hotdogs!). She wears clothes that she likes (and I don't), but that fit in with the other children.

My ds is not g or t, but he is very different, intellectually and socially, from the vast majority of his school mates. It fascinates me to see the tiny things he does to hair and clothes to fit in. It's often just a matter of collar up or collar down..........

I do agree with enabling them to have one or two fashion items or haircut, even if it doesnt bother them. Also, she does need to learn about being discrete about her marks. Teach her how to ask polite questions about others.

Other than that, its actually helping them to learn to be comfy in their own skin by being proud of who they are and teaching them that it is fine to be different. It doesnt matter if they don't enjoy the usual small talk, or want to be quiet when in a group - it is completely fine for them to be who they are. Remind her that her value isnt in her intellect, but in who she fundamentally is at the core of herself.

dd is very quirky and very very academic. She is very analytical in her conversations. Through secondary school she has learned to grow into her own skin and be comfortable with herself. She has good friends who accept who she is, I think because she does. It was only when raising her did I learn to accept my own introverted geeky ways. Now if I go to a party I'm contented with just standing quietly and listening - it took a long time to overcome the feeling of embarrassment that my parents clearly had with me. In short, celebrate who she is :)

Thanks so much for some really interesting and helpful comments. Yes, I am beginning to think she might have AS (liking "lightly touched" - that about sums it up). At primary school she was very close to a boy with AS and I suspect one of the reasons they got along so well was because they shared some of the same personality traits! Unfortunately boy-girl friendships draw so much attention at secondary school they have both decided to keep away from each other while at school, so as to avoid being at the centre of "banter" that neither of them can cope with.

She does love music and drama and yes she keeps very busy in terms of clubs etc. She's definitely happier when there's something specific to do, rather than sitting around chatting.

You've all got me thinking about ways we can encourage friendships a bit on her own terms. Inviting a friend climbing is a great idea.

And I will definitely gently point out that there's a time and place for celebrating her results (i.e. with me, when she gets home ) I hadn't really picked up on that being an issue, but they way she talked about some test results this week did make me realise she's probably being less than subtle in class. There may well be some degree of jealousy from other kids she is not picking up on.

I asked my son about the clothes thing earlier and he said "It's easy" He buttoned his shirt up to the neck, turned the collar up and sleeked his hair back and said "See? Chav". Then he unbuttoned the top 2 buttons, turned the collar down, shook his hair over his face - "Posh-boy"!

It made me smile- but I think my point is that you only have to do tiny things to help you fit in to the environment you're in. And there is no harm in doing it "if you want to". You don't have plough your own furrow all the time- it can be exhausting. And learning how to fit in when you want to is an incredibly useful skill.

"Inviting a friend climbing is a great idea"

You may know this, but be warned that the paperwork/disclaimers can be a faff the first time we take any given child e.g. one venue insists on the parent going the first time so they've personally seen what it involves prior to signing, whereas another apparently has a more relaxed insurer and lets me fill in the forms for anyone's child.

Here they've all enjoyed it even when they stubbornly freeze a few metres up and we have stick to low-down bouldering, but as above the calmer less attention-seeking children have tended to be our best choices and amongst those the girls who do some gymnastics have had a head-start.

"And learning how to fit in when you want to is an incredibly useful skill."

Obviously, but how do you teach that in anything besides an abstract, theoretical sense?

For instance, I'd have more luck moving one of the quite serious mountains DD has climbed than doing anything about her reserved nature in a classroom, which (in the spirit of OYBBK's comment) is only a problem because some callow teachers have seriously under-estimated her for lack of hands-up.

There are significant genetic influences for differences in behavioural traits and if environmental patches were trivial, we wouldn't have these threads.

Sorry, but there's more to aspergers then struggling with social skills so hinting that the OP's child may have this isn't really helpful. I'd try posting in special needs as there's books which are helpful.

I have a very geeky 15 year old with crap social skills. He's fine with adults though but I'm a single parent and he has no siblings so it's not surprising he struggles. He is getting more accepted as he grows older though. He doesn't have aspergers. He doesn't need routine, gets jokes, doesn't have obsessions etc, but he is dyspraxic.

Well the OP thinks herself that her DD probably has AS ......and she's found the posts helpful. So long as no one is trying to diagnose on here or be too definitive I can't see that the comments are unhelpful. OK so your son doesn't have AS but dyspraxia (I understand that's difficult to diagnose) posting in Special Needs is a good idea.

Hi - OP here. And yes, I do know there's more to aspergers than social skills. I mentioned DH because he has waaaay more traits than just the social ones, and is pretty convinced himself that he has undiagnosed AS. But I'm not really looking for any kind of diagnosis - whether either of them have a "syndrome" or just a geeky personality, they cope well enough with life that I don't think we need to go there.

Hadn't remotely thought of looking for books. I guess something aimed at someone with AS might also give some good hints (for both of them!). I will have a look a that.

Hi OP

Your DD sounds like me at that age.
I've just been diagnosed with Aspergers. I'm in my mid forties.

Id say check it out. I wish somebody could have spotted and helped me with my difficulties back then, it would of saved years of bullying, anxiety, depression and v low self worth.

BTW my name here is what I was called by a girl at school around the age of 12
"You're such a brainy mess"
I can still picture her angry screwed up face as she said it

I recommend the smarts girls guide to friendship. It really helped my dd who struggles to know what to say to her friends sometimes.

Last week at gymnastics a girl said to dd that she hadn't been there last week as her grandad had died. My dd said 'oh that's sad' and I nearly cried with joy as before she would have said something like 'I got new shoes today'.

www.amazon.com/Smart-Girls-Guide-Friendship-popularity/dp/1609582233

I would talk to school, even the SENCO - it just maybe they have some kind of "friendship club" and social skills training within school. There may also be access to a counsellor to talk to about her issues if she wants.

But I am a great believer in diagnosis, especially for women. Too many women I know have been diagnosed and treated for "some MH issue" when everything real resulted from their undiagnosed ASD. I think personally that it is better to know you are different (if you are), and then learn coping strategies. Especially as if you have ASD - you will find it hard/impossible to learn social rules "intuitively", you need to be told them or at least work at observing them.

I'd try to foster outside friendships and groups, anywhere she could volunteer / work at the weekend? Something she's interested in and where she may find like minded people. I appreciate she may be a little young at the moment though.
That really boosted my confidence and made me realise that there's more to life then the crappy school friendships. Otherwise it seems all consuming that everyone else is having a better time, more friends, more fun.

hmm. I think this sort of thing is common amongst academically able kids. I'm not sure if a spectrum diagnosis helps - labelled or not, it's how you are!

THe smart girls guide to friendship sounds great, and I know it's not identical, but DS " bullyproofed himself" at age 10 by using a book. He's similar and just believed in the strategies as things he had to learn and they worked.

I was a lonely brainy teen. I got friends at uni and have some social skills now- however they are " brilliant" at work and a bit stressful in situations outside work. I reckon I " put on a work persona" that I have learned over the years.

My kids could have been the same as me (Ok not DD2 she has the social skills allocation for all 3, doesn't mean she is popular though- it also means she sees the bitchiness for what it is) but in a grammar school there is a lot of that kind of " special sort of crazy" and people get along mostly. I guess academic excellence being a valued commodity that is common to all helps.

Let her be. Why do we have to conform to the socially acceptable 'norm' and label kids if they are different. It is difficult enough for schools and teachers to promote intelligence and hard work as it is.

I teach in a grammar and normally teach A Level Further Maths, there are quite a lot of kids, including girls, I have taught who can be considered geeky. My lessons can be like the Big Bang Theory sometimes but they all eventually learn to be more like 'normal' people.

A lot of kids and adults aim to be popular and want attention on themselves. There are different ways to do it, dressing differently, showing off expensive clothes, phones, trainers etc or getting into trouble, swearing so they become more noticeable. They are all different forms of attention seeking. Some kids just choose to study hard and interested in science, Maths, reading etc.

Every year on result days in August, I see many of the popular kids turn up, get a few C and D, maybe E or U grades. And they talk loudly about not doing much revision and having a lot of fun and parties and still achieve some decent grades, then they quickly disappear. Some I never see again getting back into our sixth form or back into year 13.

However, the quiet hardworking clever geeky kids stay behind talking to me about going to Oxbridge, Imperial, Warwick, UCL, LSE to do Maths, Physics, Sciences, Engineering or Economics.

I know which route I want my daughter grow up into.

But I am a great believer in diagnosis, especially for women. Too many women I know have been diagnosed and treated for "some MH issue" when everything real resulted from their undiagnosed ASD. I think personally that it is better to know you are different (if you are), and then learn coping strategies.

Well said mummytime!!!

I've spent my life trying to work out what is wrong with me.
Two months ago I was not afraid of dying because I was so sick of living after a life time of being misunderstood and despised.

Now I know, I am learning effective strategies to manage my life.

Its now a passion of mine that children and especially girls should not have to go through what I went through.